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Topic Title: Salt-water intrusion vs. Opening the locks at the port.
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Created On: 04/07/2018 04:28 PM
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 04/14/2018 08:14 AM
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From Toms link:

Coastal plain shorelines with medium wave energy exhibit distinct differences in morphology in areas with different tidal ranges. For example, barrier islands do not occur on macrotidal coasts. On microtidal coasts, which have the greatest abundance of barrier islands, the barriers are long and linear, with a predominance of storm washover influences.  On mesotidal coasts the barriers are short and stunted, with a characteristic drumstick shape. A plot of 21 coastal plain shorelines on a graph of mean wave height versus mean tidal range allowed further discrimination of the impact of these two factors on coastal morphology. In areas of low wave energy smaller tidal ranges are required to produce tide-dominant morphology than on medium wave energy coasts

This sounds like our coast, Long linear islands. But instead of a natural predominance of Storm washover influences, which no longer happen because of a build up of highways and seawalls, we are stuck with tide dominated morphology.

But is that scientific or just opinion?

 04/15/2018 12:59 PM
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If it has evidentiary support, it is scientific.

If there is counter indicated evidence, it is militant stupidy.

If there is no evidence or the evidence is inconclusive, it is opinion.

 04/16/2018 05:57 AM
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 "...we are stuck with tide dominated morphology."


??? I don't know if this was sarcasm or misconception so I'll go with that latter and,

Correct, our east coast FL barrier island morphology is distinctly wave dominated, long and narrow, few natural inlets.  

Tidal morphology, short, stumpy islands, lots of inlets is FL west coast, not us.

And also correct, we do our best to prevent washover by building dunes, renoursishing beaches etc.  

But, back to the original topic, washover was never much of a water source for the IRL.  Not compared to an artificial inlet or pump.  So the "natural" or recent (geologic) condition is little seawater input to the IRL.  

One intersting (at least to me haha) note that you've also struck is that by stabilizing both east and west sides of the island,

we're slowing or preventing the natural transgression that the barrier island would be experiencing due to sea level rise.

We seem to be creating a narrowing, taller island, than would "naturally" exist if left unmolested and what that means going forward will be interesting. 

Another uncontrolled biogeology experiment. 

 04/17/2018 06:06 AM
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One last thought:

Most of the work I've seen on a "new inlet" or pumping or similar involves

adding seawater to the north Banana River, pusing that green/brown mess down south

and out Sebastian Inlet.

So, what if that process was reversed and one could pump the Wonka water

straight out Port Canaveral?  

Then Cocoa Beach could become the bunghole of the Banana River,

not Sebastian Inlet, which,


is a kinda nice place still. 

 04/17/2018 07:04 AM
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Not sure if opening locks or new inlet would do much more than flush the immediate area not the entire system.  An Uneducated guess to fix will cost much more than the $0.05 tax increase.

1) Change season ban on all fertilizers to year round, and pay for enforcement division - Brown water or Brown grass? would be hard to get public beind this.

2) Force septic to city sewer changes for all homes near the IRL, would require ton of $$$$$$$$, impact fee waivers, etc. Not fair to those who just did it out of their own pocket, public push-back?

3) Install Ecosystem baffle box filtering system at all point source water discharge pipes , again some $$$ but not as much as above. Then more $$ for maint of the filters/debris screens, etc.

4) Expand muck removal, seems to be helping to some degree?

5) Expand TRIAL oyster reef projects and clam projects (Inlet area? other areas?)...Experimental stuff, let FIT do this..free for public no $

That is just a quick list of ideas off the cuff...I think it will continue to decline as population increases and more lots get cleared BUT ask a local in Palm Bay or W. Melbourne about the state of the IRL..many really do not care, never use the river or even cross the bridges that much.  Looks grim...

 04/17/2018 07:23 AM
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^^SurferMic dropped some good ideas. The Brevard Zoo is building Oyster habitats to place by your dock or seawall
Brevard Zoo Oyster Gardening.....

I, for one, plan on a letter writing campaign to our State and Federal representatives. Squeaky wheel and all that......
 04/17/2018 07:53 AM
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Good on you RocketSurf!!! Do what you can!

As for the Oyster reef project(s) past and present, it needs a re-design.


The plastic Oyster "mats" and thousands of zip ties to secure the shells are being introduced into the ecosystem, Re-tool the current process, other areas use concrete/shell structures, etc. which should be much better than adding TONS of plastic even though it is for a good cause (We all know how quickly zip ties break down in the elements). Good idea, not so good design/execution but again I am not an expert on this subject just an obs.  

Maybe I am wrong and the growth rate exceeds degradation of the base material and nature traps all plastic in place? Seems an environmental engineer or some-one who slept in a Holiday Inn last night could solve this problem easily.

The cages seem to be a better soltuion, but not for a large area

 04/17/2018 10:32 AM
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LMAO @ "Banana River bunghole"
 04/17/2018 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by: 3rdworldlover

LMAO @ "Banana River bunghole"

I did a nice solo session on one of the good days a few weeks back at Slater Way and paddled through a nice slick of Wonka water surface goo; my sinuses haven't been the same since.

I beginning to think those of us in the shadow of the bight are the proud owners of the refined crap from burrito night on the exiting and entering cruise ships. Bunghole is right.

Dave doesn't like me.
 04/17/2018 09:15 PM
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I haven't kept up with the Indian and Banana Rivers in Brevard, except to notice the catastrophic fish kills.  

The coastal morphology of long barrier islands and few inlets is driven by the lack of significant rivers and the moderate to minimal tidal range, along with prevalent sediment drift from north to south, feeding mineral sand to the beaches in diminishing quantitities as you go south.  Of course that creates problems with artifical or artificially stabilized inlets.  Of the more or less artificial inlets, Sebastian seems the best designed and operated.  

I don't have the information, but suspect that septic tanks and fertilizer are major culprits in lagoon water problems.  Assuming that's the case, the politics of cleanup in a politically conservative county and state may be quite difficult.  People somehow fail to notice missing fish and birds.  The security-mandated estuarine sanctuary around the Space Center did, for a long time, ensure a good supply of trophy-sized fish.  If that area's in trouble, it's terrible news.

The lagoon is not necessarily doing well in Indian River County, but there seem to be more sewer systems and a lot of local effort went into buying mangroves.  The County government's efforts to expand a tiny boat ramp in a sensitive fish nursery area at the south end of the county (Oslo Road) finally ended, partly because there's an opportunity to develop a new boat ramp at the south causeway.  

I worked on the Cross Florida Barge Canal.  The 1930s canal, which was abandoned, was to have been at sea level, and would have been a disaster for the Floridan aquifer and its springs.  The 1970 version had locks and would have used that valuable groundwater to float barges and pleasure boats.  A truly dumb use of valuable water.  Rodman Dam messed up fish spawning and nursery areas and needs to be removed.  

 04/19/2018 05:41 AM
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Peter Barile says sewage.  While I disagree with some technical details,

I think his analysis that upgrading sewer to advanced treatment is a necessity and 

converting septic to sewer is spot on.


sorry - I know it's off topic from the OP

 04/20/2018 11:38 AM
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^^^ add conversion from Orangeburg piping to plastic PVC pipes for all of beachside built pre 1975's (almost my entire neighborhood), tar and wood structure pipes that are leaching an est 30% of sewage right into the ground.  Super-old tech that is gonna be $$$$$ to fix



"It's like bombs waiting to go off," George Davies, of Satellite Beach, said of the old tar-coated wood-pulp pipe that links homes in his neighborhood to the sewer system.

In July, sewage backed up at his home on Nautilus Drive. So he decided to take a look at the fiber conduit, called Orangeburg pipe, linking his home to the sewer system.

"When we dug the pipe out, the whole bottom of the pipe was exposed," Davies said. "About a foot down into the soil, which was the water table, was black gunk. So it must have been doing it for years."

Several of his neighbors have the same problem, Davies said, so he believes sewage is seeping into the canal behind the homes, which leads to the Banana River. "All the sea squirts have died," Davies said.

He fears the commonplace, aged pipe might be causing similar seepage throughout the lagoon region.


I think the tipping point has been crossed....band-aids will help some but a huge shift in thought and a GIANT sum of $$$$ (that may be impossible to secure) is what is needed.  Again looks grim...


 04/21/2018 03:56 PM
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Anybody have an aquarium? When it gets nasty and levels too high, you flush or replace water, right?

Sebastian to Ponce inlet is about 100 miles, meaning the waters in between move a little north then a little south. Getting dirtier and dirtier as they move by the wind driven current in the middle grounds. Some openings are sorely needed in this region, and worry about change is a waste of breathe, it`s changed already and it ain`t pretty. Its begging for help. 2 quick fixes in the Banana River could be a spillway at the locks, not opening, just some surface water transfer, and a pipe/conduit from the West basin in Port Canaveral near cruise terminal-5, it`s only the width of the 401 roadway, quick and easy, cheap too... with a closing feature.

Mother nature has been trying to breach the beach but we keep doing re nourishment projects, she`d have done it already and cleaned it out herself...

People are the issue and as stated not going anywhere so we desperately need to clean up our act, sewage/septic is huge, fix the old leaking pipes and all on septic get piped in, maybe putting a lien on the property so if it sold that would be the first thing paid.

Years ago when it rained on the areas around the river it soaked in, landing in the fields meadows and woods, now it lands on houses, roads, and buildings, runs off into the river with all of the pollution along with it... Oil from vehicles, fertilizers, weed killers, are all making their way into to the delicate lagoon. That needs to be caught and cleaned, as stated.

Yards in our area need to go native or xeriscaped, needing no watering and fertilizing, huge help there, too. Common in many areas.

Grass is key and getting it to return is crucial.... Manatees haven`t been mentioned but are posing a threat also, the numbers are skyrocketing from warm winters and conservation, they eat and rip out by the roots enormous amounts of seagrass and their waste is toxic as well in the confines of many areas. Seems with the conditions as they are their numbers are sure to drop, so sad to see this taking place.

I`d honestly like to see 4 controlled openings done soon, South end of Mosquito Lagoon, Port Canaveral, South Cocoa Bch, and Melbourne Bch where the island narrows again, flush then close to be used again if necessary!?

I've decided to accept the fact - I'll always be a big kid!

Edited: 04/21/2018 at 04:32 PM by JBSURF
 04/21/2018 06:29 PM
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Damn....great video. We need to make that mandatory viewing for every Florida politician.
Thanks JB

 04/22/2018 01:36 PM
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I have an idea on how to deal with the fertilizer/yard waste issues. Offer a property tax break to those who make their yards "lagoon friendly." Something similar to the homestead exemption. Set standards for various types of properties.. waterfront, inland, beachside, metro, etc... Have third person private companies inspect (at the owners expense) every x amount of time and those that pass get a certification. Something similar to an insurance wind mitigation inspection. Provide the certificate to the county and get tax incentive for your efforts. I'd imagine this would get wide support from the population.

I suggested this idea to county commissioner Kristine Isnardi along with a donation to her campaign last yr or so. She liked the idea.. for what its worth.

something similar needs to be done with septic systems. Raise standards to operate one, require permits and inspections and fine property owners who are polluting. (maybe this is done already??)

We fine property owners for eyesores, noise pollution and code issues every day. Are we fining the property owners of leaking septic systems???

The clams need to be restored as well. Especially melbeach S to the inlet.

We should convert the golf courses (especially if county owned) E of I 95 to wetlands, similar to what is done in viera. route as much runoff as possible through them before releasing into crane creek and eau gallie river.
Do the same in the satellite bch area, the country club course in cocoa bch, and other more densely populated parts of beachside. Make the wetland park accessible and charge admission.. they'd probably do better than a golf course.

I'd like to see an inlet in N Brevard and another at Spessard Holland, which would make a killer state park
The big problem I could see with adding inlets would be increased flooding during a hurricane. In the Carolinas, most of the flooding during a storm is overwash from the W as a lot more water gets pushed in behind the islands

Permanently fund and expand the ongoing muck dredging projects and allow the tourist tax to fund cleaning the lagoon projects.

Stop waiving impact fees for any new construction.

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