In the late 60's my Dad fought hard to stop the cross Florida barge canal. As vice-president of the local Audubon chapter, this was a major focus for my father. I remember the main concern was the salt-water intrusion. Lately, in the local news, I have seen the idea of opening the Canaveral locks during incoming tide to help flush the IRL. There are a lot of guys on this forum that have a good knowledge of our waterways and I would like to ask them if opening the locks is a viable solution.....I understand that a salt-water canal running through Ocala would be devastating but putting salt-water into the brackish water of the IRL might be just what it needs.....

Open the damn lock.
Anyone been on the river in the sebastian inlet area or ponce area lately? Way healthier....
I want to revive the idea for another inlet by taco city.
Or pineda causeway. The pafb land is already govt owned.

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spindrift

Ummmmm, , , , , Catch 22, , , , ,

While it seems to be a "no brainer" in regard to "flushing" the IRL, , , , ,

The fact is that over the past many years we have generally not received enough rain (and consequent run off), , , , , , resulting in the IRL being too salty to begin with.

The IRL is a "brackish" environ, not salt.

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Dora Hates You

I often wonder how a tide would affect the lagoon. If we create a a tide in the lagoon we basically will never have a lagoon again I guess. Maybe rename Banana and Indian Bay? Might be the only hope to have any decent water quality again. I imagine it would expose a lot more homes to potential storm surge and a lot of canals might not be navigable anymore.

 We definitely have a complex problem way above my intelligence level. I think we have to bite the bullet and do some massive upgrades to the sewer system. Maybe some tech to apply to existing sewers and septic systems? Perhaps filter systems?

I am afraid it's just going to get political like everything else and nothing will get done except waste a bunch of money.

To all the people who think opening the locks will help. Which again it may. Explain why the grass is all dead near Sebastian? Sure they have more grass than up here in central Brevard but nothing like it was.

Way back when, , , , , we moved to Eau Gallie in 1956, , , , ,

The Indian River was fairly clear and quite swimmable. In the middle of the old swing bridges (Eau Gallie & Melbourne causeways) you could generally see the bottom of the channel. One day, while in the middle of the "Swing" we looked down and watched an aprox 12 FT sawfish swimming along the bottom of the channel.

Shrimping was unreal back then. I'd go with my father and some of the other neighborhood gentlemen. We'de take two galvanized trash cans and head to the old ice plant. If it was not open they had a vending machine where for a quarter-or-two you'd get a block of ice. There were always a couple "old boys" hanging around with their ice picks who would chip the ice for you for another quarter-or-two. One trash can would be pretty much filled with chipped ice and off we'de go tp the causways. Back then there were no aluminum poles; perhaps if you were rich enough, but way too expensive for most shrimpers, so everybody used bamboo poles. Now the "nets" where another thing! A lot of guys used plain old netting. But, the old-timers used "nets" made from chicken wire. You see, when the shrimp were running "thick", if you were using a net made from regular netting, the load would be too heavy to pull up repeatedly and you'd wear yourself out! The chicken wire allowed a lot of the "little" shrimp to escape so you were only pulling up the bigger shrimp! Pull up a load, put them in the trash can, cover with a layer of ice, go for another "dip". When the trash can was full, back to home where everybody started popping heads off, if that had not already been done on the bridge. There were many nights when the huge white shrimp were running; almost a pound each.

At times the blue crabs made shrimping almost impossible, the crabs would be so thick that they would form rafts under the kerosene lanterns that were hung down over the water.

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Dora Hates You

Edited: 04/08/2018 at 10:40 AM by dingpatch

Opening another inlet or the locks to flush the IRL would just be turning the ocean into our toilet and would be an extension of the same thought process that made the IRL what it is today. "It's only a little bit of sh_t and the water body is so big, let's just put it there. Problem solved." Sure the ocean would hide it for a while, maybe a long while, but, not forever. (Watch "Soylent Green" for a take on what happens when the oceans die.) The answer is to fix the problems, not hide them. Get these homes off septic tanks, quit flushing the middle of the state into the IRL AND quit fertilizing in the water shed. The answer is NOT "clean" septic tanks, there is no such thing. The answer to issue one is NO septic tanks. And, each homeowner should have to pay for their conversion. I have been paying to treat my sewage for 40 years at about $35/month (about $17,000 overall) plus the hookup fee (if I recall it was couple of thousand dollars). I don't mind floating a bond for the conversions and letting the homeowner finance at a low interest rate, but, I am against giving them the money (ie, me paying them) to convert. They have been getting a free ride for far too long. Each constituency wants to point the finger at the other and say they are the problem. The truth is that each are equally culpable and each must be addressed, but, not necessarily simultaneously. Everybody wants to wait to address their problem until the others are addressed. That will get us nowhere. While fertilization is the easiest, septic to sewer conversion is easier and less expensive than the watershed issue and, while it will take years and millions of dollars, it can be started almost immediately.

And, my parents paid to City of Melbourne treat my sewage for my first 23 years (another $10,000). So, almost $30,000 has been paid to Melbourne to treat my poop. Septic tanks only treat bacteria, they do not treat nutrients even when functioning optimally. (I know about UV treatment, etc, but, there are issues with that, too.)

 I cannot comment on the tech of sewage treatment. I also agree using the ocean is a bad idea too. The cities/counties are no making a valid argument to connect to sewer when they are having trouble dealing with the existing.

Like it or not development is not going to stop and the cities/counties have made plenty off of development fees.

sewage treatment ?
doesn't melbourne have injection wells?
not sure how good/bad they are or if its really healthy for mother earth

Another great discussion folks.
Im on the rivers coupla days a week. The water level fluctuates up and down by several feet every week or so. I dont think it's due to rain, and certainly not tides.
Does the water management district dump water from the st johns periodically? Other explanations?

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spindrift

Tides

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Dora Hates You

The IRL is a low flow ecosystem by natural design, if you start flushing it, it will be fundamentally changed.

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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

Garcia and Worksux are on it.

 

As I understand the proposal currently:

The Port area would be used as a 1-way valve to introduce clean seawater

to the north Banana River pushing the mess down through the central IRL

and out Sebastian Inlet.  Biology, restoration vs engineering, etc. set aside,

I just can't see this as a really good plan.

 

I thought we learned back in the '70's that

"The solution to pollution is NOT dilution", rather,

it's reduce, reuse, recycle.  

In this case, it's reduce the load of nutrient nitrogen and phosphorus to the Lagoon.

 

Simplistically, there are three sources of these nutrients: 1) atmospheric deposition, 2) wastewater, 3) fertilizer.  Need to work on all three but,

In order of toughest and most expensive to cheapest, fastest, easiest:

1) Atmospheric deposition is tough, can't wrap the Lagoon in cellophane so set it aside for the moment.

2) Yes, we can clean up wastewater by upgrading treatment, getting rid of septic, setting standards for nutrients in reuse water (right, there are none), but these are slow and expensive, and lets face it, it's not a sexy problem that anybody want's to champion. 

3) So for a start, how about just quit using ornamental fertilizer.  Ag and some uses (like ball fields for example) need fertilizer.  The rest of the fertilizer is just not needed and if you think about it and it's pretty cheap to not fertilize   And simple too, you might be doing it right now.....   

So, 1) be cheap and lazy and quit using fertilizer (yes you!) and 2) lobby the IRL NEP and other governmental entities (County) to upgrade sewer, tie in septic and regulate nutrients in reuse water (yes, you again).  

just 2cents worth 

 

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add a signature since I'm here in profile anyway

Looking at the Google Maps, it appears that if the locks were open at the Port, all of the water would be eventually pushed South through the narrow Mather's bridge area. It might help clear up the Banana River, but I can't see how it'd really help the IRL.

The IRL is a low flow ecosystem by natural design, if you start flushing it, it will be fundamentally changed

 

The 'natural' state of the lagoon is where the dunes are breached by hurricanes which open large areas of the lagoon directly to the Ocean, those breaches fill with sand, more breaches are made. etc...

The Natural state is where every couple years the entire lagoon gets opened to the ocean and flushed out. Instead of a continual island from the Cape to Vero, it should be a series of Islands. Opening another or several more inlets is more Natural than the closed cesspool we have now.

 

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As I said, there are some scientists here.

And some others with opinions.

From Toms link:

Coastal plain shorelines with medium wave energy exhibit distinct differences in morphology in areas with different tidal ranges. For example, barrier islands do not occur on macrotidal coasts. On microtidal coasts, which have the greatest abundance of barrier islands, the barriers are long and linear, with a predominance of storm washover influences.  On mesotidal coasts the barriers are short and stunted, with a characteristic drumstick shape. A plot of 21 coastal plain shorelines on a graph of mean wave height versus mean tidal range allowed further discrimination of the impact of these two factors on coastal morphology. In areas of low wave energy smaller tidal ranges are required to produce tide-dominant morphology than on medium wave energy coasts

This sounds like our coast, Long linear islands. But instead of a natural predominance of Storm washover influences, which no longer happen because of a build up of highways and seawalls, we are stuck with tide dominated morphology.

But is that scientific or just opinion?

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If it has evidentiary support, it is scientific.

If there is counter indicated evidence, it is militant stupidy.

If there is no evidence or the evidence is inconclusive, it is opinion.

 "...we are stuck with tide dominated morphology."

 

??? I don't know if this was sarcasm or misconception so I'll go with that latter and,

Correct, our east coast FL barrier island morphology is distinctly wave dominated, long and narrow, few natural inlets.  

Tidal morphology, short, stumpy islands, lots of inlets is FL west coast, not us.

And also correct, we do our best to prevent washover by building dunes, renoursishing beaches etc.  

But, back to the original topic, washover was never much of a water source for the IRL.  Not compared to an artificial inlet or pump.  So the "natural" or recent (geologic) condition is little seawater input to the IRL.  

One intersting (at least to me haha) note that you've also struck is that by stabilizing both east and west sides of the island,

we're slowing or preventing the natural transgression that the barrier island would be experiencing due to sea level rise.

We seem to be creating a narrowing, taller island, than would "naturally" exist if left unmolested and what that means going forward will be interesting. 

Another uncontrolled biogeology experiment. 

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add a signature since I'm here in profile anyway

One last thought:

Most of the work I've seen on a "new inlet" or pumping or similar involves

adding seawater to the north Banana River, pusing that green/brown mess down south

and out Sebastian Inlet.

So, what if that process was reversed and one could pump the Wonka water

straight out Port Canaveral?  

Then Cocoa Beach could become the bunghole of the Banana River,

not Sebastian Inlet, which,

IMHO,

is a kinda nice place still. 

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add a signature since I'm here in profile anyway

Not sure if opening locks or new inlet would do much more than flush the immediate area not the entire system.  An Uneducated guess to fix will cost much more than the $0.05 tax increase.

1) Change season ban on all fertilizers to year round, and pay for enforcement division - Brown water or Brown grass? would be hard to get public beind this.

2) Force septic to city sewer changes for all homes near the IRL, would require ton of $$$$$$$$, impact fee waivers, etc. Not fair to those who just did it out of their own pocket, public push-back?

3) Install Ecosystem baffle box filtering system at all point source water discharge pipes , again some $$$ but not as much as above. Then more $$ for maint of the filters/debris screens, etc.

4) Expand muck removal, seems to be helping to some degree?

5) Expand TRIAL oyster reef projects and clam projects (Inlet area? other areas?)...Experimental stuff, let FIT do this..free for public no $

That is just a quick list of ideas off the cuff...I think it will continue to decline as population increases and more lots get cleared BUT ask a local in Palm Bay or W. Melbourne about the state of the IRL..many really do not care, never use the river or even cross the bridges that much.  Looks grim...

^^SurferMic dropped some good ideas. The Brevard Zoo is building Oyster habitats to place by your dock or seawall
Brevard Zoo Oyster Gardening.....

I, for one, plan on a letter writing campaign to our State and Federal representatives. Squeaky wheel and all that......

Good on you RocketSurf!!! Do what you can!

As for the Oyster reef project(s) past and present, it needs a re-design.

.

The plastic Oyster "mats" and thousands of zip ties to secure the shells are being introduced into the ecosystem, Re-tool the current process, other areas use concrete/shell structures, etc. which should be much better than adding TONS of plastic even though it is for a good cause (We all know how quickly zip ties break down in the elements). Good idea, not so good design/execution but again I am not an expert on this subject just an obs.  

Maybe I am wrong and the growth rate exceeds degradation of the base material and nature traps all plastic in place? Seems an environmental engineer or some-one who slept in a Holiday Inn last night could solve this problem easily.

The cages seem to be a better soltuion, but not for a large area

I would like to hear more from the scientists on this, I bet if it were not for the dune restoration we could have had a pass somewhere along Playlinda to Seb inlet.

I was way north at playalinda(gasp no not on the beach side) but from the river it looked VERRRY narrow. perhaps ma nature will try it for us



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I troll 2L.com to be a better person in real life

Dr. Zarillo of FIT has studied this in great detail.  Options including widening Sebastian Inlet, keeping the locks open and installing a new conduit between the IRL and Ocean were all evaluated.  It has been awhile since I saw his presentation, but I believe that doing any of those only produced a very insignificant change in the long run.  There just wasn't enough water exchange. If you are really interested I am sure you can find the presentation.

 

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2015/08/21/canaveral-lock-save-lagoon/32132331/

Makes sense. Small orifices and not much chance of significant flow from inlet to inlet. Tides arrive at about the same time.

What I meant by fundamentally changing it, is once you open it up and increasing the flow things like dissolved oxygen and salinity are forever going to change and it wouldn't be the same type ecosystem anymore. There are much smarter people on here than I that can explain it in better detail. I'm just the knucklehead out there in waders with a YSI and a bunch of sample bottles. However this topic has given me a great idea for my GIS project.

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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

Edited: 04/09/2018 at 07:41 PM by worksuxgetsponsered

Along this vein....I would think that tides arriving at the same time at that distance would not affect the inflow of water since it is not a pressured sealed system. I believe there is some wind driven slosh effect in the rivers. I know on a hard SW wind the 1000 islands of Cocoa Beach fill up with water. I have also shrimped up in the BR no-motor zone and Haulover Canal and have seen water movement under bridges. Since we have a predominate NE wind it would seem that there is a bit of a N->S flow. But as DaveFL76 says the end of the Banana river is so narrow water flow would be limited.
To Quote the FlaToday article "his $20,000 study for the St. Johns River Water Management District, he conducted several computer model runs, which included leaving the locks open......." That is pretty lame, only 20k?......we need to really figure this problem out and it will cost a lot more than that. Bottom line: the Powers that be need to wake up in Tallahassee and DC to help recover the IRL......

Ya. I suppose the daily wind cycle could act as a sort of very slow pump inlet to inlet. Maybe.

Sign me up for the taco city inlet!!!! Been tooting that horn every chance I get. A small inlet with a small pump station. Google the Boca Raton inlet (except add the pump. If it's a smaller inlet, the pump shouldn't cost as much).



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I type on fone 99% of time. Let the typos slyde. Thanks

Ummmmm, , , , well, again, , , , , a "new" inlet, or otherwise leaving a lock open, sure does sound good for some people. BUT, the fact remains that it would destroy the ecology of the IRL as we know it. It would become something "new" and a lot of the grasses and species that you seem to love would soon go away. And it would still be constantly polluted by septics and run-off. It would certainly "appear" to be cleaner but, are you going to swim in it?

Lawn run-off is still going to be there and septic tanks are still going to pollute. How about getting involved in ending fertilizer in Brevard, and work to stop new septic tanks and eliminate those that are already here.

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Dora Hates You

I worked on the Savannah River deepening project several years ago when they deepened it by just a few feet to allow the post-panamax ships to get into the wharfs.  It played a huge role in changing the salinity, DO and a host of other water quality markers several miles up the River.  That was a little different than our lagoon as the Savannah is truly a River.  But what it did do is allow the salt water to creep further inland and was a very big deal.  Fresh water ponds became saline, etc. etc.  Need to be careful with altering things as it is truly a butterfly effect.

Just a couple of things:

First, a potential misunderstanding of the barrier island geology locally.

Our geology and oceanography tends to create long thin barrier islands with few inlets; and,

any storm breaches are rapidly healed.  So, little water exchange with the ocean is the norm.  

Here's a good read on the subject if intersted:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Miles_Hayes2/publication/259646763_Barrier_Island_Morphology_as_a_Function_of_Tidal_and_Wave_Regime/links/55a50b9408ae00cf99c940ff/Barrier-Island-Morphology-as-a-Function-of-Tidal-and-Wave-Regime.pdf

 

Worksux:  I usually use the SJRWMD data retrieval tool:  http://webapub.sjrwmd.com/agws10/edqt/

I believe that historical data are pulled from STORET and recent data 

are (or will be) pulled from WIN.  There will be a known discontinuity between

how near detection limit values are handled by the two systems.  

I forget what that discontinuity is (haha, old guy), but it's driven by the U/I data qualifier flags. 

And don't diminish the "field guy with meters and bottles" stuff.

That's the group that "measures with micrometer", where the actual work get's done.

Everybody else is in the "mark with chalk, cut with axe" group;

where the real boo boos are made.  

 

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add a signature since I'm here in profile anyway

Yea I have heard this wont work because the lagoon needs clean FRESH water, yet most the fresh water we get is not clean.

Hate to say it as I love the place, but the CB golf course and its neighbor the poo-plant cant be helping. Also all the waterfront homes fertilizer.....

I wonder if someone could figure out what amount of yards, condos, parks etc would need to quit using fertilizer to put a noticeable dent in it.....visual and tangible goals help motivate nay sayers

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I troll 2L.com to be a better person in real life

The lock is used to keep the port free of sand or at least slow it down, so keeping it open is a non starter; too much money at stake. The bridges are choke points too, so something would have to be done to increase flow. What ever the issue, it will take more than local money to solve the problem.

I have taken Tom's route of no fertilizer and my yard looks like it. I need some help on local, drought tolerant vegetation, does anyone have a suggestion?

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I was right.

 

succulents are the answer yer lookin for.

 

Too bad you're not in Cali.

 

they pay you to tear up your yard, and plant em.

 

Glad we have worksux and tom on the case.

Calling scombrid too.

My buddy got several $K from the San Diego County Water Dept to replace his grass with astroturf. It actually looks and feels quite nice. Aside from fertilizer runoff and sucking wells dry, it also eliminates some lawnmower exhaust and fuel consumption.

I just found some approximate prices on the internet, and rough estimates were a bit cheaper than pavers. Not out of the question for my next yard upgrade.

Another thing to think of is the natural filters of the IRL.

If you go down to Vero and Ft. Pierce, they have kept the mangrove trees almost everywhere; even in the marinas.
They line almost every inch of the IRL coastline down there.

But up here, they are treated as invasive trees, and "blocking my view" of the water.

It's not the only solution, but IMHO, the trees greatly help the water filtration process.

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GOP:

Gaslight
Obstruct
Project

Tangential (in several ways) to the above... I think the storm surge models around Satellite Beach and IHB have the riverside houses flooding before those closer to the ocean.

One of the projected problems with a hurricane sitting off our coast is that a north wind (on the west side of the storm) would push water south, and as the Banana River narrows toward Dragon Point, you have more potential for water to overflow the banks.

I imagine the riverfront property owners and their insurance companies would fight any opening.

If we had a full-time inlet, there would be nothing to keep storm surge out of the IRL. With a lock that can be closed, you have a way to keep the water out when you need to. No new rivermouth break, but cheaper to use existing hardware than to build a new bridge.

I remember when the banana river first started to go, the no motor zone north of nasa causeway was the "holy grail" no motors, not much runoff etc etc.....I have not been in years but have heard even that area has and is losing grass.

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I troll 2L.com to be a better person in real life

Thanks Tom. After speaking with my professor I'll probably use a more controlled system for this study, there are just too many variables in the IRL for this semester (I'm still getting my feet wet), but its definitely something I want to look into for my final project.

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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

Is the IRL the design nature had in mind or have we screwed it up like the Kissimmee River too?

They have spent millions on the Kissimmee in the last few years, I wonder what we need to do to get the Federal and State government to notice us? Do we need more rich people bitching in the capital? I'm pretty sure Wonka water doesn't do much to help the resale of canal and river front houses.

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I was right.

http://www.mynews13.com/fl/orl...0/brevard_officials_br

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Dora Hates You

Fix the three Ss first:
Septic Tanks
Sea Walls, and
St. Augustine lawns

I think mangrove restoration along seawalls would go a long way. Also, more encouragement to get people to switch to native landscapes in their yards. It's also possible for locals to get together and create a water control district to replace septic with a modern wastewater treatment and reuse system. Check the history of the Loxahatchee River Environmental Control District to see how it can be done.

Regarding inlets and flushing, give Ma a few more years and she'll show us how it's done. Probably somewhere near Taco Shitty

They have tried mangroves several times and they never seem to take. I wonder i it too dirty for them too?

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I was right.

LMAO @ "Banana River bunghole"

I did a nice solo session on one of the good days a few weeks back at Slater Way and paddled through a nice slick of Wonka water surface goo; my sinuses haven't been the same since.

I beginning to think those of us in the shadow of the bight are the proud owners of the refined crap from burrito night on the exiting and entering cruise ships. Bunghole is right.


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I was right.

I haven't kept up with the Indian and Banana Rivers in Brevard, except to notice the catastrophic fish kills.  

The coastal morphology of long barrier islands and few inlets is driven by the lack of significant rivers and the moderate to minimal tidal range, along with prevalent sediment drift from north to south, feeding mineral sand to the beaches in diminishing quantitities as you go south.  Of course that creates problems with artifical or artificially stabilized inlets.  Of the more or less artificial inlets, Sebastian seems the best designed and operated.  

I don't have the information, but suspect that septic tanks and fertilizer are major culprits in lagoon water problems.  Assuming that's the case, the politics of cleanup in a politically conservative county and state may be quite difficult.  People somehow fail to notice missing fish and birds.  The security-mandated estuarine sanctuary around the Space Center did, for a long time, ensure a good supply of trophy-sized fish.  If that area's in trouble, it's terrible news.

The lagoon is not necessarily doing well in Indian River County, but there seem to be more sewer systems and a lot of local effort went into buying mangroves.  The County government's efforts to expand a tiny boat ramp in a sensitive fish nursery area at the south end of the county (Oslo Road) finally ended, partly because there's an opportunity to develop a new boat ramp at the south causeway.  

I worked on the Cross Florida Barge Canal.  The 1930s canal, which was abandoned, was to have been at sea level, and would have been a disaster for the Floridan aquifer and its springs.  The 1970 version had locks and would have used that valuable groundwater to float barges and pleasure boats.  A truly dumb use of valuable water.  Rodman Dam messed up fish spawning and nursery areas and needs to be removed.  

Peter Barile says sewage.  While I disagree with some technical details,

I think his analysis that upgrading sewer to advanced treatment is a necessity and 

converting septic to sewer is spot on.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X18300572

sorry - I know it's off topic from the OP

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add a signature since I'm here in profile anyway

^^^ add conversion from Orangeburg piping to plastic PVC pipes for all of beachside built pre 1975's (almost my entire neighborhood), tar and wood structure pipes that are leaching an est 30% of sewage right into the ground.  Super-old tech that is gonna be $$$$$ to fix

linky:

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/environment/2014/11/01/overwhelmed-brevard-sewers-tax-indian-river-lagoon/18321337/

"It's like bombs waiting to go off," George Davies, of Satellite Beach, said of the old tar-coated wood-pulp pipe that links homes in his neighborhood to the sewer system.

In July, sewage backed up at his home on Nautilus Drive. So he decided to take a look at the fiber conduit, called Orangeburg pipe, linking his home to the sewer system.

"When we dug the pipe out, the whole bottom of the pipe was exposed," Davies said. "About a foot down into the soil, which was the water table, was black gunk. So it must have been doing it for years."

Several of his neighbors have the same problem, Davies said, so he believes sewage is seeping into the canal behind the homes, which leads to the Banana River. "All the sea squirts have died," Davies said.

He fears the commonplace, aged pipe might be causing similar seepage throughout the lagoon region.

......................................................................................................

I think the tipping point has been crossed....band-aids will help some but a huge shift in thought and a GIANT sum of $$$$ (that may be impossible to secure) is what is needed.  Again looks grim...

 

Anybody have an aquarium? When it gets nasty and levels too high, you flush or replace water, right?

Sebastian to Ponce inlet is about 100 miles, meaning the waters in between move a little north then a little south. Getting dirtier and dirtier as they move by the wind driven current in the middle grounds. Some openings are sorely needed in this region, and worry about change is a waste of breathe, it`s changed already and it ain`t pretty. Its begging for help. 2 quick fixes in the Banana River could be a spillway at the locks, not opening, just some surface water transfer, and a pipe/conduit from the West basin in Port Canaveral near cruise terminal-5, it`s only the width of the 401 roadway, quick and easy, cheap too... with a closing feature.

Mother nature has been trying to breach the beach but we keep doing re nourishment projects, she`d have done it already and cleaned it out herself...

People are the issue and as stated not going anywhere so we desperately need to clean up our act, sewage/septic is huge, fix the old leaking pipes and all on septic get piped in, maybe putting a lien on the property so if it sold that would be the first thing paid.

Years ago when it rained on the areas around the river it soaked in, landing in the fields meadows and woods, now it lands on houses, roads, and buildings, runs off into the river with all of the pollution along with it... Oil from vehicles, fertilizers, weed killers, are all making their way into to the delicate lagoon. That needs to be caught and cleaned, as stated.

Yards in our area need to go native or xeriscaped, needing no watering and fertilizing, huge help there, too. Common in many areas.

Grass is key and getting it to return is crucial.... Manatees haven`t been mentioned but are posing a threat also, the numbers are skyrocketing from warm winters and conservation, they eat and rip out by the roots enormous amounts of seagrass and their waste is toxic as well in the confines of many areas. Seems with the conditions as they are their numbers are sure to drop, so sad to see this taking place.

I`d honestly like to see 4 controlled openings done soon, South end of Mosquito Lagoon, Port Canaveral, South Cocoa Bch, and Melbourne Bch where the island narrows again, flush then close to be used again if necessary!?


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I've decided to accept the fact - I'll always be a big kid!

Edited: 04/21/2018 at 04:32 PM by JBSURF

Damn....great video. We need to make that mandatory viewing for every Florida politician.
Thanks JB

I have an idea on how to deal with the fertilizer/yard waste issues. Offer a property tax break to those who make their yards "lagoon friendly." Something similar to the homestead exemption. Set standards for various types of properties.. waterfront, inland, beachside, metro, etc... Have third person private companies inspect (at the owners expense) every x amount of time and those that pass get a certification. Something similar to an insurance wind mitigation inspection. Provide the certificate to the county and get tax incentive for your efforts. I'd imagine this would get wide support from the population.

I suggested this idea to county commissioner Kristine Isnardi along with a donation to her campaign last yr or so. She liked the idea.. for what its worth.

something similar needs to be done with septic systems. Raise standards to operate one, require permits and inspections and fine property owners who are polluting. (maybe this is done already??)

We fine property owners for eyesores, noise pollution and code issues every day. Are we fining the property owners of leaking septic systems???

The clams need to be restored as well. Especially melbeach S to the inlet.

We should convert the golf courses (especially if county owned) E of I 95 to wetlands, similar to what is done in viera. route as much runoff as possible through them before releasing into crane creek and eau gallie river.
Do the same in the satellite bch area, the country club course in cocoa bch, and other more densely populated parts of beachside. Make the wetland park accessible and charge admission.. they'd probably do better than a golf course.

I'd like to see an inlet in N Brevard and another at Spessard Holland, which would make a killer state park
The big problem I could see with adding inlets would be increased flooding during a hurricane. In the Carolinas, most of the flooding during a storm is overwash from the W as a lot more water gets pushed in behind the islands

Permanently fund and expand the ongoing muck dredging projects and allow the tourist tax to fund cleaning the lagoon projects.

Stop waiving impact fees for any new construction.

^^^good vid above - nice to see advanced wastewater treatment getting at least a bit of a mention

Also, wanted to add some scale, because,

this being a surf forum and all,

size (?) matters ... 

In Martin Co. they're already tying in septic to sewer;

it cost about about $14K per tank.

In Brevard Co. there are about 90K tanks, so,

do the math, about a $1.3B dollar outlay to tie all them in.

Coincidentally, that's about the entire annual budget ($1.1B) for Brevard Co. 

And that doesn't include upscaling the wastewater plants to handle the additional flow,

or, upgrading them to advanced treatment.

Somebody want to do the math and tell me what it costs

to not apply any fertilizer? 

FWIW, do the easy (cheap!) stuff now

and work on the hard stuff while you're doing it.   

 

and matt - you're a radical and anarchist (no golf!?!), admirable! (edit: except for the new inlets part of course )

And no, there's no current inspection requirement, fees or fines for septic.

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Edited: 04/23/2018 at 06:06 AM by tom

We got the St. Augustine out and have Mimosa. It is awesome. I was worried that neighbors didn't like it because it can look a little less tidy than the chemlawn look. But I had a couple of neighbors ask me why I cut down all the beautiful flowers last Tuesday when I mowed it. It will be full of flowers again by the end of the week though. I felt bad for the bees when I mowed but then the coffee plants out back bloomed and the bees are working those while they wait for the mimosa flowers to come back.

One thing left for us to do to our landscape is to jackhammer out the concrete driveways and replace with something porous so we can fully keep the runoff on our property. Not sure when we will have the funds for that. We need a new roof first.

I'm trying to soft pedal the gospel of lagoon friendly yards to my St. Auggie neighbors but they are stubborn. Jean watered her yard every day last week and she is going nuts with spray right now trying to control the weeds and chinch bugs. I really need to convince her to stop spraying the oak "seedlings". She still doesn't grasp that they are root suckers and she is applying herbicide to a giant live oak.

This landscaping stuff really is the low hanging fruit in the lagoon clean up effort.

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Run the sewer lines all the way down to the inlet.. currently, sewer service stops at publix. There are some privately run plants in the S beaches area but I think its mostly septic. even some of the new mansions going up.

My neighbors and i applied for a state grant to try get this funded about 10 yrs ago. We came in second to another project and didnt get the funding.

I have a couple of questions.

1) Aren't septic systems supposed to be sealed or do all of them just openly flow into the aquifer?

2) It it does flow into the ground water, isn't some of the material filtered by nature?

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I was right.

No and yes...
Here is 1 of many designs for a septic system, but they all flow into a drain field by design as far as I know.



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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

From what I know about septic tanks and the video above I think the big problem is not the tank but the pipes coming from the house to the tank. These pipes are old and rotten and leaking the "effluent" in the ground without the benefit of the bacteria in the septic tank. This bacteria breaks down the crap and breaks down some of the toxins. The outlet from the septic tank leaches into the ground via the drain field and, yes, hopefully is "filtered by nature"

Ah "septictank", that's an old native american phrase for "magic box in ground". 

OK, mass balance people:

50 gals of dirty water goes in, 50 gals of dirty water comes out.  

(btw - I used 50 gals because that's about how much water a person uses each day, check your water bill)

The tank has a baffle in the middle (see worksux's diagram) to keep the solids out of the drainfield,

and an invert to keep the floatables out of the drainfield.  Prevents clogging.

The tank itself is a bioreactor of sorts, it kills viruses and fecal coliform bacteria so it doesn't transmit disease.

That's what it's there for, to protect human health, not the environment.

Also, to some extent, it biodegrades solids to disolvable substances.

So, for example, if you unrinate out 11 grams of nitrogen as urea (yep, that a daily median value)

it get degraded comes out of the tank as 11 grams of nitrogen as ammonium. 

No reduction in nutrient load.  

Sure, there are advanced system that do some nutrient reduction

(and there is some (small) amount of natural denitrification that also counts as reduction)

but advanced systems (in my experience) get broken and become non-advanced pretty quickly

and since they're expensive to repair and no requirement.... you get the idea.

 

Another fun fact, note the flow of water in Rocket's diagram

from the drainfield to the aquifer,

and then back up the well and into the house

I don't know why people complain about drinking reuse water,

(https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/04/06/rick-scott-rejects-toilet-to-tap-proposal-to-pump-treated-waste-water-back-into-aquifer

if, you're on septic and shallow well, you already are. 

(check the nitrate value for your well water from when the well was tested when you bought the house, the test is a requirement)

 

So, septic tanks have a place in life like everything else.

If you live on 10 acres, 19 miles out on the end of a dirt road,

it's impractical to pump your sewage to the treament plant.

If you live on a quarter acre plot surrounded by hundreds of other identical homes,

you/we need sewer.

Oversimplified again, of course, but FWIW.

 

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Edited: 04/25/2018 at 05:53 AM by tom

Thanks Tom.

"As long as the discharge from private septic drain fields percolates downward deeply into the soil the nutrients are biologically consumed and almost completely sequestured in the soil. "

And, if that was happening, it wouldn't be showing up in the Lagoon. 

See Barile paper, previous page, this thread.  

 

edit:  and T, I should use you as my editor all the time, saves zeros and ones.

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Edited: 04/25/2018 at 07:26 AM by tom

As long as the discharge from private septic drain fields percolates downward deeply into the soil the nutrients are biologically consumed and almost completely sequestured in the soil.  The same is mostly true for any leaks upstream of the tank as long as it too percolates downward.  Just put your drinking water well a good distance away, or very, very deep.

It is my belief based on personal observation that the problem arises due to periods of extreme heavy rain fall where our flat terrain and sandy soil becomes totally saturated and downward percolation ceases.  Standing nutrient rich surface water then runs off directly to the storm water infrastructure and typically straight to the lagoons.

Building Codes have also been updated that require drain fields be more elevated and porous to prevent clogging and eventual failure.  The problem with these newer fileds is they tend to drain a bit more horizontally, especailly in flooding conditons, resulting in increased nutrient rich storm run off.

There are also many older canal homes that were built with septic systems, where downward percolation naturally resulted in leaching to the canal.  Even when these septic aystems are replaced with sanitary sewer that leaching will persist for many years.

It has also been my observation that extreme heavy flooding rains have become more frequent and consistent locally and aren't giving the lagoons a opportunity to recover as they have in the past.  It doesn't help that Brevard County santary sewer sytems are leaking at an increasing rate and provide a near continuous nutrient flow.

I've been observing the Chain of Lakes strom water retention system North of Titusville since its creation, and believe that is a viable solution.  We need many more such installations just like it, but in high desity areas where they're needed the most, space simply does not allow it.  I hate to say it, but a prolonged and severe drought that spikes lagoon salinity is our best hope for a recovery.  Any such recovery would of course be short lived though.       

Diffusion is not just vertical as you imply in paragraph 3.

lots of good ideas on this thread

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I troll 2L.com to be a better person in real life

Anyone ever document the long term salinity trend?
More development usually means more freshwater discharge.

Interesting comment by Cole above, that mangroves won't take. That's possibly due to low salinity, and maybe mangroves aren't supposed to be there, historically. Maybe other lagoon vegetation types could be looked at for restoring shorelines?

Mangroves do fine low salinity. The water just needs to be salty enough often enough to stop competing species in natural settings. If it stays fresh permanent then it will transition from Mangrove to shrub swamp or herbaceous marsh depending on hydrology and nutrient availability (like the sawgrass-mangrove gradient down south). 

As for the general trend. The lagoon is getting saltier (speaking of the water between SI and Haulover). More development means more flashy, so a less reliable supply of poorer quality water. You get spikes of fresh (loaded with nutrients) and then long evaporation dominated interludes. This increases the residence time of water and promotes plankton growth. Rain fall patterns have also trended toward having longer more intense dry seasons punctuated by events (e.g. Fay, Irma). Some of that is Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation related with a layer of a warmer climate layered on top. A full narrative would be TLDR for a forum and probably range into the realm of "but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night".

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Edited: 04/25/2018 at 05:21 PM by scombrid

http://webapub.sjrwmd.com/agws10/edqt/

There's a lot of data here. A little cumbersome to search at first until you get used to navigating.

I just did a quick download from a station that is in the Banana near 520 and graphed out salinity from 1987 to March 2018.

Can't paste the graph though.

Salinity was 10-20 ppt in the wet 1990s.

Got up into the to almost 35 ppt in the 2000-2001 drought.

A wet 2001-2005 period pushed it back down to around 15.

It went up pretty steady there-after with the exception of the Fay blip. Fay dropped it from 30 to 17 in one shot but then the weather got dry again. By Jun 14 it ws pushing 40 ppt. That hyper-saline condition is not good.

Somebody in the know probably can find stations that go back further than the mid-1980s.

That is the open BRL. Your mileage may vary depending on location. Mosquito infested places like Sykes Creek and the way north BRL used to stay really fresh for a long time during wet periods. All of our canals and ditches mean they get fresher faster when it does rain and saltier faster when it doesn't rain.

Oh, another one to add to the mix. People running their irrigations wells constantly. Those shallow wells are pulling water that should go into the lagoon.

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Edited: 04/25/2018 at 05:24 PM by scombrid

scombrid-sent you a PM

Hey scombrid -

Was thinking about your well/groundwater statement.

I wonder what the percentage of surficial aquifer vs florida aquifer those wells are?

Surficial wells would be subtraction from the baseflow but deep/floridan irrigation might be addition, depending on ET rate of course (?).   

Also, I've always wondered what the localization / focusing of stormwater infiltration via retention/detention does to groundwater flow and quality.  Similar to runoff quality(?).  

Just random thoughts, adding to the mix as you said.

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Diffusion PDE

How appropriate to this thread!

Brown 25.

In an attempt to decrypt the wiki article, the diffusion equation says that the rate of change of density (of groundwater in soil in this case) at any point with respect to time is dependent on the the rate at which that density changes with respect to position. Stated even more simply, liquid tends to spread out, though that won't help you predict the amount of flow; time rate depends on space rate is both elegant and non-trival and the solution to a differential equation is a function or an approximation thereto.

Note that for groundwater you would have to add a gravity term.

Interesting read on septic and sewer issues

FLA TODAY Article on Septic and Sewage

Again, , , , , as a very wise Old Boy told me many years ago, , , , The Shit, , , , has Got to Flow, , , ,

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Dora Hates You

Not sure if they still use this method, but back in the day we used to perform double-ring infiltration tests and my were they a pain in the ass.





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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

Hey Ding,

I'll see your wise ol' boy and raise you a Plumber's Law.

Plumber's Law:

1. Hot on the left.

2. Cold on the right.

3. Sxxx flows downhill.

And, downhill anywhere in the IRL watershed,

is the Lagoon.  You get the idea.

 

Matt - was that the septic tank moratorium?  Link didn't work.

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2018/04/26/brevard-county-commission-pushes-moratorium-installing-conventional-septic-tanks/553964002/

 

 

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Wish they would do that in Orange County as well. At least in moderate to high density housing areas.

Tom- finished that GIS project, it went well. It was very basic, just did a comparison on nutrient loading in 2 orange county lakes, one impaired the other not (yet anyways). I did use the SJRWMD land use layer. I may have to hit you up for help again next semester.

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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

Orlando is stepping up their monitoring, they will be installing dozens of stage sites over the next six months, with plans of water quality too. It's a shame things have to fall apart before people notice there is a problem.

People, science is NOT the enemy.

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I was right.

Well done Sux!  Keep after it, we need more people who understand both the situation and the toolkit.

I wish I had better GIS skills, no formal training, just kind of a user.

Old guy, haha, I wrote my thesis on floppy disks. 

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That infiltration test gear looks cool, WSGS, and I can't say I understand how it works.

Again, glad some scientists are on the job.

I am a little bit worried about the Banana River dissolved oxygen today. Chlorophyll is at 300 ug/L according to the sensor up by 520. That is severely high. Heavy overcast could stifle photosynthesis. DO started trending down yesterday.

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The short and sweet on the DRI is the two rings are pounded into the ground to a certain depth (the smaller ring is taller), and there are graduated marks inside both rings, you have to maintain the water level in both rings, while tracking time and volume for each over X number of hours. It's very easy to loose track and very tedious. We often did it in conjunction with slug tests over an area. That's how they got the infiltration rate, mostly for building retention areas and stuff. I hope they've come up with something a little more user friendly by now.



Not a good sign. You know what it was? <5mg/L things start to go bad.

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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

Edited: 05/14/2018 at 11:39 AM by worksuxgetsponsered

rain rain go away another fish kill on the way

more like

people people move off the river our lagoon cant get any sicker

The ORCA Kilroy real time data are here. http://api.kilroydata.org/public/

There's a button you can hit to plot past data.   

And, FWIW:  IMPORTANT MESSAGE: As of July 1, 2017, the State of Florida has reduced the funding required to maintain ORCA's Kilroy Monitoring Network. This funding cut has resulted in the reduction of the state funded Kilroys from 25 to 8. Your generous support is needed more now than ever to help us carry on our vital research. Please consider making a donation today. All donations are tax deductible. ORCA is a non profit 501(C)(3).

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From Tom's link.

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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

At this stage the rain is a good thing. The DO is bumping up.

Now we have to contend with all the crap that rain flushed into the lagoon.

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I was right.

Another idea for water retention. I plan on digging French drains under all my downspouts to try to hold all my roof runoff water on my property to limit the amount that flows into the canal behind my house.

Cool Rocket

Another idea is to create some rain barrles, my mom made two to catch roof water to use on her plants....i pimped it out by painting a redfish, tarpon, snook slam on it......used to be able to catch all three in the canal behind their house on 4th st south

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I troll 2L.com to be a better person in real life

Just wondering why the west coast of Fla is so pristine. There are way more people, houses and boats running on that waterway. Seagrass is abundant and there are lots of inlets. Must be the poop

Flow I would imagine.



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I was right.

Different type of ecosystem. Our lagoon is a lagoon with long water residence time. It makes it a lot more sensitive to nutrient inputs, much like the interior lakes that have flipped into plankton dominated regimes from their former existence as clear water plant dominated systems.

If we flushed IRL enough we could get it to function like the west coast.

How much structural re-engineering would it take to make the Banana and Indian into tide dominated systems with short little islands and tons of inlets like the west coast?

I am pretty sure "opening the locks" isn't going to do it.

How much would it cost to maintain all of those man-made inlets?

How much tolerance do the residents of Brevard have for the enhanced storm surge risk that would come with having lots and lots of open breaches in the barrier strip?

Wouldn't it be preferable and more affordable to reduce the nutrient load to one that is suitable for the natural lagoon ecosystem?

Also, the west coast isn't "pristine". It has it's own problems. It just isn't as bad as the current state of IRL.

Tampa Bay has water quality has improved with clean water act compliance though.

 

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"Must be the poop..."

Or lack of it. 

In addition to a) geology and b) flow,

a.  west coast FL geology is tidally dominated and so has shorter islands, more inlets

b.  the west coast of FL is, um, downhill, abundant upland freshwater input to the Gulf

the difference is a classic Florida problem, memory loss. 

Tampa Bay, for example, was dead by the '70s.  (time frame: Clean Water Act '72 and EPA '70)

Tampa and the surrounding communites implemented many of the controls during the late '70 and early 80's we're just getting around to addressing.  

Improved sewage treatment, elimination of point sources, encouragment of native horticulture, fertilizer controls, etc.

These have already provided some obvious improvements there,

and, 

Tampa Bay has a 40 year head start on us.  

Our improvements will be slower to realize because of the longer residence time of our water, 

when, 

we finally get our act together and implement the controls.  

some Tampa Bay history here for reference:  http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1146&context=basgp_report

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Interesting salinity trends. The lagoons in SFL have flashy inputs, to the extreme of course. Way too much freshwater in wet season and not enough dry. Most of the big projects are targeted towards addressing that, and nutrient loads.

Now, what about temp?

I remember scombrid's mention of increasing overnight lows. That's got to have a big effect on lagoon ecology, as warming water maybe should reduce dissolved O.

After the heavy rains last Sunday (22 April) the canal behind my CB home went from a light spicy mustard yellow color to a rootbeer shit-brown color....I also noticed what looked like a thick red paint spill on the water and after a closer exam I found it was red stringy algae with the added bonus of a dead catfish.

Today there are multiple dead fish at the head of the canal and the color of the water is now red. I know there is some action in work from our local officials but the bottom line is a lot more money needs to be dedicated to the IRL. I write letters and get canned responses. It seems that the only way to get through to these people is by some kind of social media, viral event (I can't believe I'm using these words). Maybe a little "Fight Club" style operations. No destruction, no violence, just events or local antics that could get some national/state attention. I don't think there would be anything better than to see a politician sweating in front of multiple cameras explaining why the money that should be used to stop polluting the IRL: new sewer sys, removal of septic tanks, runoff management, use of fertilizer, etc. is being diverted to: upgrades to the Viera Regional Park's soccer and lacrosse fields($5M), an elections support complex (~$2M) that is not being used, an indoor multiuse sports arena and hotel project in Titusville ($7M). It seems the list is endless.
WE LOCALS NEED TO STAND UP AND BE NOTICED AND HEARD!
Man, I'm pissed...
1st rule of Fight Club is..........

yea the new downtown cocoa beach looks nice, but would have preferred the old if the $$ addressed those ^^pics above^^ makes me sick to look at!

I wonder if they will cough up enough to put up no swimming/nadar signs....

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Worksux, you nerd!
Don't make me post the coke bottles pic!

those were called birth control glasses.

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Specializing in sarcasm and condescending rhetoric since 1971.

playlinda has a few spots that appeared to have breached not too long ago, but have closed up. Next big one will surely spill across

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