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Topic Title: The Political Revolution is dead
Topic Summary: Long live the Revolution
Created On: 04/27/2016 06:42 AM
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 04/28/2016 07:44 AM
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obx2

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Too much to put all your thoughts in one post, Scom? Or do you sit there and seethe over a span of almost 30 minutes thinking of things to say and pepper them in as they pop in your head?

Seriously man, I'm just a faceless dude on a forum, don't let me get into your head like that for a full 30 minutes...

 

 

 04/28/2016 07:56 AM
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obx2

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Originally posted by: RustyTruck It's almost inconceivable to me that anyone could listen to 30 seconds of a trump speech and elect him bathroom monitor. Right, but you'll elect Hillary in spit of her proven history of corrupt, lying, and deceitful actions??

 

Obama has been like any other moderate democrat. He didn't take away the guns, HAHA, you're a fool if you think he wouldn't if he could. He sure as hell tried.

he didn't silence his enemies, Um, remeber the whole IRS scandal?

and he's subject to the constitution like any other president. And how many of his EOs/intiatives have been deemed un-consitutional?

 

The media just sells soap, when there's no news they make some up. I see the USA in global context, and Trump is a very real threat to our standing and reputation. Do you believe in national sovereignty or world sovereignty?

For the first time in modern history we could be outcasts. With the direction this world is heading, I would welcome that.

I am generally curious though, what specifically has Trump said, done, that makes you labell him as a fascist? Spare me the "how can you watch a speech and not come to that conclusion" Show me some indepentant thought, leading you to that conclusion. You'll at least have some credibility for doing so, at least untill you put a check mark next to Hillary in November.

 

 04/28/2016 08:34 AM
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scombrid

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Posting from my phone while doing other things and you refuted nothing.



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Edited: 04/28/2016 at 08:41 AM by scombrid
 04/28/2016 08:50 AM
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scombrid

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Originally posted by: obx2

 

he didn't silence his enemies, Um, remeber the whole IRS scandal?

Should we remember what really happened or what you believe happened based on what you were fed by certain media?

 

And how many of his EOs/intiatives have been deemed un-consitutional?

List those that have been struck down by the courts.

 

 

 

 



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 04/28/2016 11:34 AM
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obx2

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Tell us what "really happened" Scom. Or are you suggesting that the IRS did not selectively target?

Regarding the Supreme Court shooting Obama down, Google is a hell of thing:

https://www.google.com/#q=obama+executive+orders+declared+unconstitutional

 

 04/28/2016 11:59 AM
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scombrid

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Originally posted by: obx2 Or are you suggesting that the IRS did not selectively target?

Yep.

Do you have evidence that Obama directed any targeting?

Didn't Trump say that he wanted to punish media that were unfriendly toward him?

Regarding the Supreme Court shooting Obama down, Google is a hell of thing:

https://www.google.com/#q=obama+executive+orders+declared+unconstitutional

 

Your search terms are vague and the hits on that page do not enumerate individual cases.

How many unique cases of rulings against Obama are there?

Best part is that your search terms yield this hit on the first page:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2013/01/28/when-it-comes-to-abuse-of-presidential-power-obama-is-a-mere-piker/#7f944b16601a

You say Obama is so bad in this particular way then you should elaborate on the cases that you find egregious and put them a proper historical context. Otherwise you seem to just be bleating back partisan noise. Hell, you should at least be able to rattle off something specific.

Isn't Google rigged? How are right wing websites like Heritage showing up at the top of the list if Google is rigged?

 



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 04/28/2016 12:06 PM
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scombrid

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What the next move? Copy/paste or link to a list from a group like the "committeeforjustice"?



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 04/28/2016 12:07 PM
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Sniper

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Originally posted by: scombrid
Originally posted by: obx2 In your own words (not regurgitated media propaganda) what makes him a bigot?  

 

I can quote his speech about Mexicans again.

In that speech he did not simply warn that we need to better scrutinize migrants and secure the border where such scrutiny isn't happening.

No, he first characterized illegal immigrants as Mexican rapists, murderers, and drug dealers and maybe a few good people.

Given the general demographics of the illegal immigrants from Latin America I'd say his characterization is grossly innaccurate.

 



Have rapists, murderers, and drug dealers entered our country illegally?

The answer is yes. So, what is the big deal with Trump stating it out loud?

We don't have many skilled workers sneaking into our country over the southern border.

Even if we need the migrant labor, we deserve to know who is here and we deserve the ability to decide whether or not it benefits the United States for them to be here, just like every other country whose heart isn't three times the size of their brain.

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"The government who robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul," - George Bernard Shaw

“Don’t underestimate Joe’s ability to f—k things up.” - Barack Obama

“End of quote. Repeat the line.” - wise words from Joe Biden
 04/28/2016 12:08 PM
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obx2

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No, I'm just going to wait about 30 minutes until you are done peppering this board with your thoughts.

Seriously, try and get all in on one post, Scom. Please.

 04/28/2016 12:29 PM
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obx2

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Originally posted by: scombrid
Originally posted by: obx2 Or are you suggesting that the IRS did not selectively target?

 

Yep.

 

Do you have evidence that Obama directed any targeting?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy

But surely since the DOJ decided there wasn't enough evidence, then that must be true, right? Thats almost as obsurd of supporting the idea that you have to ask permission from the people you are protesting against, for the permission to protest (Im talking about the need to procure a permit to protest near the White House).

 

Didn't Trump say that he wanted to punish media that were unfriendly toward him? I don't know, did he? Let me do some research:

https://www.google.com/#q=trump+punish+media+that+were+unfriendly

Oh no, the first hit is from VOX, so the entire premise must be false since VOX is a left leaning rag? Or was my search to broad?

 

Regarding the Supreme Court shooting Obama down, Google is a hell of thing:

 

https://www.google.com/#q=obama+executive+orders+declared+unconstitutional

 

 

 

Your search terms are vague and the hits on that page do not enumerate individual cases. Does not enumerate individual cases, WHAT ABOUT THE FIRST HIT?!?!

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/fifth-circuit-obama-immigration/415077/

or, how about the second one?

https://www.myheritage.org/news/unanimous-supreme-court-rules-against-the-obama-administrations-unconstitutional-power-grab/

 

 

 

How many unique cases of rulings against Obama are there?

 

Best part is that your search terms yield this hit on the first page:

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2013/01/28/when-it-comes-to-abuse-of-presidential-power-obama-is-a-mere-piker/#7f944b16601a

HAHAHA, way to gloss over the 8 hits that are before that one (BTW, I couldn't access it to read it because that page wants me to turn my ad blocker off)

 

You say Obama is so bad in this particular way then you should elaborate on the cases that you find egregious and put them a proper historical context. Otherwise you seem to just be bleating back partisan noise. Hell, you should at least be able to rattle off something specific.

Wrong, I have never said "Obama is so bad...". I used his unconstitutional EOs to supplement Rusty's comment on him being "subject to the constitution" along the premise of "Thank God for the Constitution stoping Obama's fascsim. But like always, you take something out of context (that wasn't even directed towards you in the first place) and completely spin it into something you can refute.

Isn't Google rigged? How are right wing websites like Heritage showing up at the top of the list if Google is rigged?

 

 

 

 

OK, assuming your turrets is over for now, see above for my responses.

 04/28/2016 12:57 PM
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RustyTruck

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Ob- if a president issues an executive order, and it is challenged in court and found to be unconstitutional, that's pretty much the definition of "subject to the constitution", is it not?

That's how the system works. Laws and actions of legislators and lower court judges are challenged all the time, it doesn't make those persons fascists.

I'm not sure where to begin, but let's try this. Here's the definition. Do you think Trump does NOT fit this definition in so much as he's revealed himself to us?

fas·cism
[?faSH?iz?m]
NOUN
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism · totalitarianism · dictatorship · [more]
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti
 04/28/2016 01:36 PM
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obx2

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Honestly, I do not. He leans close to the center on a lot of issues, enough so that he has been labeled liberal by the staunch right wingers. I was looking for you to provide me with examples, since you often call him a fascist. If you can't come up with anything, than ask yourself if your opinion was formed for you or by you? That article you posted in the other thread makes me suspect the former. But seriously, I would at least respect your opinion if you can offer examples to justify it (not that my respect means shit, but you know what I mean)

 04/28/2016 04:12 PM
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Cole

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Bernie has been in politics his entire life. Sure he is an outsider, but he is damn sure a career politician.

Trump plans on banning all Muslims from entering the US. That involves a data base and a religious test. What's next, armbands?

The 14th Amendment states that those born within our borders are US citizens. Trump plans on deporting the children of illegals, i.e. he plans on overriding the Constitution. Sorry bub, but that is Fascism.

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Edited: 04/28/2016 at 04:18 PM by Cole
 04/28/2016 05:15 PM
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scombrid

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Originally posted by: Sniper  Have rapists, murderers, and drug dealers entered our country illegally? The answer is yes. So, what is the big deal with Trump stating it out loud?

Characterizing millions of people that way is the "big deal".

His rhetoric sounds just like that of his kind in the early 20th century when talking about some of my ancestors.

It is too late for him to walk it back and say that he is just concerned that we better scrutinize migrants and/or protect American workers from cheap imports.

 



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 04/28/2016 05:18 PM
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scombrid

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Originally posted by: obx2

 

OK, assuming your turrets is over for now, see above for my responses.

 

You need to learn to use quote tags.

 



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 04/28/2016 05:21 PM
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scombrid

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Originally posted by: obx2

 

 

HAHAHA, way to gloss over the 8 hits that are before that one

Way to ignore the content of the Forbes article.

Way to fail to notice that several of those 8 hits referenced the same single case.

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong, I have never said "Obama is so bad...".

Yeah you have.

 

 



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 04/28/2016 05:23 PM
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scombrid

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Originally posted by: obx2

 

Didn't Trump say that he wanted to punish media that were unfriendly toward him? I don't know, did he?

 

You don't know?

Clearly blinkered.



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 04/28/2016 05:51 PM
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RustyTruck

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Originally posted by: obx2

Honestly, I do not. He leans close to the center on a lot of issues, enough so that he has been labeled liberal by the staunch right wingers. I was looking for you to provide me with examples, since you often call him a fascist. If you can't come up with anything, than ask yourself if your opinion was formed for you or by you? That article you posted in the other thread makes me suspect the former. But seriously, I would at least respect your opinion if you can offer examples to justify it (not that my respect means shit, but you know what I mean)


You really need me to give examples of him being intolerant, authoritarian, nationalistic, or right wing? Has he not tried repeatedly to silence his critics through intimidation and dehumanization? Is he not an extreme nationalist who would punish business when he thinks they are not acting in the national interest?

There's hope for you obie, so I'll ask a favor. Just spend 10 minutes watching this non partisan lecture from Khan Academy on the rise of Mussolini and fascism in Italy. Then let's compare and contrast with Trump.

http://www.khanacademy.org/hum...i?_escaped_fragment_=

This is personal to me, my wife's grandfather was a partisan and was imprisoned at Risiera di San Sabba concentration camp in Trieste. He was one of the lucky ones, but it's not a happy place. My revulsion to Trump is not trivial or hasty. Just think about it.

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti
 04/29/2016 05:21 AM
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obx2

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Originally posted by: RustyTruck
Originally posted by: obx2 Honestly, I do not. He leans close to the center on a lot of issues, enough so that he has been labeled liberal by the staunch right wingers. I was looking for you to provide me with examples, since you often call him a fascist. If you can't come up with anything, than ask yourself if your opinion was formed for you or by you? That article you posted in the other thread makes me suspect the former. But seriously, I would at least respect your opinion if you can offer examples to justify it (not that my respect means shit, but you know what I mean)

 

You really need me to give examples of him being intolerant, authoritarian, nationalistic, or right wing? There is nothing wrong with being nationalistic, or right wing. Granted, like everything else, it becomes a problem when its taken to the extreme, but I do not see him on the extreme right (the video you had me watch even touched on this). In fact, like I said, some in his own party don't even consider him right enough. Regarding being intolerant/authoritarian, why can't you just give me specific examples? I can tell you feel strong in this regard, so enlighten me, becaue I can't get past the media bias towards him. It makes me distrust everything "they" say. So, I'll watch his speeches, and form my own opionin. This also helps when the media takes his little "gotcha" statements out of context, because I saw/heard it for myself and know what he meant, and how it differs from the what he media says. (You see, this is how it works. Lets face it, most people don't watch these speeches. They rather watch the Kardashians, the Voice, or whatever other else. So their only source of political information is through the OPINIONs of the media, and not the candidate themselves. Thats how propaganda works. For it to work, you need a disinfranchised population that doesn't really give a shit).

So, please Rusty, give me some specific examples that are not media driven opinions.

Has he not tried repeatedly to silence his critics through intimidation and dehumanization? WHAT POLITICIAN DOESN'T? Look at the current political atmoshpere, are not the critics either intimitaded or mocked/snarked at?

Is he not an extreme nationalist who would punish business when he thinks they are not acting in the national interest? By punish do you mean tax them at a higher rate? Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that what the left wants? What other forms of punishment have you heard him speak of? Another honest question.

 

There's hope for you obie, so I'll ask a favor. Just spend 10 minutes watching this non partisan lecture from Khan Academy on the rise of Mussolini and fascism in Italy. Then let's compare and contrast with Trump. http://www.khanacademy.org/hum...i?_escaped_fragment_= This is personal to me, my wife's grandfather was a partisan and was imprisoned at Risiera di San Sabba concentration camp in Trieste. He was one of the lucky ones, but it's not a happy place. My revulsion to Trump is not trivial or hasty. Just think about it.

I watched the video and honeslty I did learn more about fascism/Mussolini. However, the only parellels I see are his rise to power from the angst/disgust by his countrymen with the given state of their country. So yes, much like there are a lot of pissed of people in this country rallying behind Trump, there were a lot of pissed of people in Italy rallying behind Mussolini. But from what I learned, the premise of the pissiness is different. In America, we are pissed off at the Oligarchs stomping on our Constitution, our "freedoms" slowly being taken away, and watching our work to income ratio diminish. For Mussoline, it was a revolt against Socialism itself. (I did find it ironic that Facism spun from Socialism). The vide even said "The ELITE and the middle class were both unhappy with the way the government was running the country" BIG DIFFERENCE TO WHAT WE HAVE GOING ON HERE IN AMERICA. The middle class are pissed at the elite taking the power away from us.

One more thing, the video talked about the black shirts using violence/intimidation to get there point across. Based on your writtings, you seem to think that Trump and his supporters do the same? I ask you, who is doing all the protesting/inciting violence lately, the left or the right? Honestly, do you see any Trump supporters at Hillary/Bernie rallies stoking flames?

I respect your personel feelings towards Fascism, but to be honest, I think equating Trump to Mussolini, the Trump "movement" to the fascist movement, and Trump to Mussolini on a personl level, are far stretched at best. Not to sound like a dick, but unless you can provide me some sort of specific examples, I can't help but conclude you are letting your emotional hatred towards fascism cloud your logical, fact driven, opinon of Trump. However, who the fck am I to judge, you are entilted to whatever you feel.

 

 04/29/2016 07:44 AM
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RustyTruck

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OBie, Some of those are on the Trump wagon are against the oligarchy, but he has also blown the dog whistle to bring in racists, misogynists, and xenophobes. He knows exactly what he's doing, maybe it's a big trick to get the vote from those sectors and it doesn't really represent him, but I'm not sure that's any better.

I know you don't trust the media but there's plenty of objective evidence in these links.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/...against-trumps-racism

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...se-of-eminent-domain/

This business of stomping on the constitution is a construct of the right and has little basis in fact. We have built in protections for that. What "freedoms" have you lost?

Mad at the Elite? Trump is the Elite. He's the first to tell you how great, rich, smart, and influential he is.

I can't convince you of anything, you seem to have your mind made up, but I'm giving you what you need to be informed.

Trump has made very thinly veiled threats of violence throughout his campaign. Mark my words, if there's a contested convention, you will meet the future black shirts.

Certainly I'm anti-fascist to the core, but I'm a long time student of history, and I'm telling you all the warning signs are there. It's not identical but there are very eerie parallels with what's happening in the USA and Europe in the 1920-30 era.

Hell with sympathizers like Lindbergh and "America First", the German-American Bund, and the "Business Plot" over here it was beginning to spread this way as well.

It won't ruin my day if you remain convinced that Trump would be good for the country, I'm only obligated in my simple way to try and give you more information to inform your decision. Whatever's going to happen will happen.

There's always Central America.

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti
FORUMS : National Enquirer (FORMERLY NSR) : The Political Revolution is dead

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