I imagine some did die honorably defending their families and the fatherland,...

Do you think the confederate flag (confederacy) was all about slavery and hate? Seems like a history lesson is in order.

Honestly though, if we are going to start picking on symbols that represent horrible historical acts, maybe we should start with religious symbols. The cross for example represented the group responsible for mass genocide throughout various points in history... in total, worse than what Hitler did. I am not even talking about the millions of secondary deaths due to the ideology, just the direct ones. Not to mention other horrible acts like slavery, misogyny, and torture on a massive scale.

Edited: 08/15/2017 at 02:22 AM by miker

Without slavery, there would have no civil war. To suggest anything other is revisionism.

But religious symbols have no business in the public square either.

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Capitalism is based on the ridiculous notion that you can enjoy limitless growth in a closed, finite system.

In biology, such behavior of cells is called "cancer".

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions - African slavery as it exists among us - the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it - when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

"Our new government is founded upon exactly this idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

-Alexander Stephens, VP, CSA Slavery and hate were the conerstone of of the confederacy, indeed.

It's the Confederate Battle flag and it stands for one of the darkest times in US history.

The next time you see someone with a Rebel Flag t-shirt or sticker on their car, have a talk with them, then get back to me and tell me it's not about race.

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I was right.

Cole, you are having a reading comprehension issue again.

I didn't say it wasn't about race or slavery ....I said it wasn't *all* about hate and slavery. Simply saying the civil war was all about slavery is short sighted, ignorant, and historically incorrect. While that was indeed a major part of it, simply blaming only that is a gross over simplification.

I wouldn't say it was all about hate.
But it was about slavery, foremost.
What else?

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"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill

That's like saying the German Nazi movement wasn't all about the holocaust.


Hey, the Nazis built the autobahn! Shouldn't there be a statue?



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Capitalism is based on the ridiculous notion that you can enjoy limitless growth in a closed, finite system.

In biology, such behavior of cells is called "cancer".

A simple flow chart for the slow people on here like Cosmic, FK and the like.

For our history lesson we can start with the declaration of secession from states such as Texas.

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...

Mine was a generalized statement about those who still display the battle flag.

I understand there were several reasons for the Civil War, but i'm talking about right now, not back then.

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I was right.

yeah, let's look at the 10% that was not about race/hate. smfh

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QOP = Terrorists
FK = Gay

It's quite informative to read Abraham Lincoln's speeches and addresses to Congress in chronological order.

You will observe a gradual change in position over time leading up to the war.

It is impossible to disentangle economics and morals in the real world.

There were various tariffs (1828 and 1860 in particular) which were unfavorable to southern states. The increased cost of living due to the tariffs would be exacerbated by the loss of cheap, slave labor. The resulting loss of production would further weaken agricultural production and accelerate the decline of southern economies.

In one of Lincoln's speeches (lost link among too many open tabs), you can read harbingers of the Trump/Russian collusion, in how southern states were working with foreign powers (presumably England, which was also harmed by the tariffs), to subvert the tariff legislation proposed and passed by the northern states. You can also read about how some of the desired action/intent was to collect debt owed to the federal government from those tariffs.

I'm not saying slavery was not a major issue in the Civil War -- far from it. But you see less of that, and more about debt collection and "disloyalty to the Union" in Lincoln's early speeches.

If you do more research (disclaimer: mine is necessarily limited), you will find it difficult to uncover unbiased sources. The pro-Confederacy writers all give preference to the economic/tariff issues, while the pro-Union writers endeavor to debunk that in favor of the slavery aspect.

That's part of the reason I've tried to limit my research to reading Lincoln's own words in chronological order.

I don't think you can put cause numbers like 10%/90% on the war without a better understanding of the multiple factors involved, and how those factors and the opinions toward them changed over time.

There's some truth to that..... If you havent seen Ken Burns's Civil War documentary, it's pretty awesome

 

I do think the Swastika reference has some merits.... on an exagerrated level.

btw my dad's parents were both German immigrants who wanted to get the F out of Dodge in thge 30's..... glad my mom's family tree helped mix up those genes 

Keep in mind the words of Lincoln were formulated to represent an evolving political position, it's not the same as a journal of his private thoughts.


"The increased cost of living due to the tariffs would be exacerbated by the loss of cheap, slave labor." sounds like Tpap complaining about raising the minimum wage.
Funny how the arguments of the right thread through time. Taxes are too high! Servers in restaurants don't deserve more than the least we can pay them.

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Capitalism is based on the ridiculous notion that you can enjoy limitless growth in a closed, finite system.

In biology, such behavior of cells is called "cancer".

I used to hear old rednecks say this about the The War of Northern Aggression, "At first the rebels thought the yankees were there to steal their land, so they fought them hard and strong. When they found out all they wanted was their N words, we let them win".

Back in the day the Stars and Bars stood for the Unity and purpose of the Confederate States in their battle for succession, states rights, property rights and general fear of what they perceived to be a foreign culture and army from the North.

Those fuck wads in Charlottesville carrying that flag most certainly had a different idea of its meaning. To them it is a symbol of their inherent racism. White superiority.

I'm sure there are others who currently display that flag who may not espouse the same radical ideas as those in Charlottesville. I'd call them racist lite.

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So if you are a surfer I wish you the prosperity that allows you more time to pursue the salt water dream, and the true happiness that comes from warm water, clean waves and the companionship of your fellow surfers. If you are an internet troll just spewing bs then f off.

yes he did say:

"In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country."

Todays's racists and fascists like to cherry pick that quote,

but in the same letter the traitor General Robert E. Lee also wrote:

"It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy."



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"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill

It doesn't matter what the Civil war was fought for. Many (most) who fly this flag, or display it in any form in public are doing it for one reason. To dis blacks and instill fear in blacks.

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Replace turf grass with native plants that don't need irrigation and synthetic fertilizers or chemicals that can go into our waterways and ocean

Those who adopted the crucifix as a symbol of their beliefs have committed more acts of slavery, genocide, misogyny, rape, and torture than the swastika and the confederate flag combined. In fact, it isn't even remotely close.

If we are going to try to erase history by removing symbols, then we need to start with the biggest offender of them all.