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Topic Title: Murder or self defense
Topic Summary: no knock raids gone bad
Created On: 03/19/2017 10:41 PM
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 03/19/2017 10:41 PM
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3rdworldlover

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 03/20/2017 06:00 AM
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stokedpanda

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I dont see how the "no knock" could help officers safety unless they were planning on raiding and killing the occupants.....I would say they surround, spot light, and megaphone the area before entering...sure someone could flush some cocaine or pills down the toilet or garbage disposal but still could be found and give a chance for surrender.....

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 03/20/2017 06:24 AM
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Cole

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Kick my door in unannounced and you better hope you can outrun buckshot.

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Trump/Putin 2016!
 03/20/2017 06:27 AM
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miker

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Yup, and you will end up dead at the hands of the police with the way things are now.
 03/20/2017 06:34 AM
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SuperTeeBird

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Awful. Hopefully body cameras will help the police to think everything through first. And of course protect them when they are in the right.



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“Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can’t help them, at least don’t hurt them.” ~ The Dalai Lama

 03/20/2017 06:50 AM
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miker

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There is an easy fix for this to be honest.

We aren't in a combat zone and this should never happen when entering a personal residence. Teams are always going to be in position before breaching, so there is absolutely no reason why they cannot announce there presence immediately before doing so ....loudly and clearly.


On three ----

Three
Two
One - Announce presence with a megaphone (This is the police ...or whatever)
GO - Kick in the door, crash through the window, blow a hole in the wall ....etc.


Obviously if you aren't entering a home and are raiding a warehouse, different rules apply ...but this can be done 100% of the time in a home. No surprise or initiative would be lost.
 03/20/2017 06:56 AM
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SuperTeeBird

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Right, but I think employing some logic and continuous training and refining of procedures would be nice.

You know all this because you are a soldier and you trained, trained, trained to accomplish your mission and stay alive; you know where bravado starts and ends; too bad more cops don't have that experience.



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“Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can’t help them, at least don’t hurt them.” ~ The Dalai Lama



Edited: 03/20/2017 at 07:21 AM by SuperTeeBird
 03/20/2017 07:12 AM
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RegularJoe

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It's a weird world, where expected rational thinking does not always apply. If a suspect knows he's outnumbered by cops, you'd think the most he would do is flush the evidence. But some of these people are multiple offenders out on probation, and they'd rather commit suicide-by-cop than go back to prison for 20+.

The no-knock raid is supposed to provide the element of surprise -- no time for the suspect to arm himself or flush evidence. But with the element of surprise, the suspect has no real idea of the number of people, or if they are real cops or not. Throw in the stun grenades while a guy is sleeping, and there's no way to expect a rational response; it's like stepping on a shark.

Sadly for the cops, I don't think there should be any legal protection for one breaking into a house in the middle of the night with flash-bangs and bright lights. In particular, their use of the technique for surprise is exactly a reasonable defense for the occupant to shoot, especially when stunned and not thinking rationally yet.

There was also a sad case in GA, where cops threw a stun grenade in the front door and landed inside a sleeping baby's crib.

This is a level of militarization I don't think the cops need for the average meth dealer or most other cases. Maybe for El Chapo or a guy holding hostages, but very rare indeed.
 03/20/2017 07:41 AM
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Cole

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An unarmed guy in Daytona was shot in the face during a smash raid because someone found an empty pot bag in his garbage.

Overkill for an empty pot baggie?



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 03/20/2017 07:53 AM
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StirfryMcflurry

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Originally posted by: miker We aren't in a combat zone .

 

 

WRONG



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 03/20/2017 08:01 AM
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3rdworldlover

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Wrong address raids and innocent occupants traumatized, injured and/or killed are all too common.

Wrong house, 7 y/o girl, brains blown out:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Aiyana_Jones
 03/20/2017 09:10 AM
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johnnyboy

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If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. These guys train, prepare and live for this. I have seen this same scenario from very different perspectives. One perspective is that of an assistant city attorney who has to evaluate the liability and risk of being sued while the other is from that of a criminal defense lawyer. Cole is right about the idea that an unannounced intruder is a deadly threat unless and until there is a clear indication that the intruder is police officer in the lawful execution of his duties. This no knock warrant is specifically tailored to address any deadly threats within a residence before they can arm themselves and/or destroy evidence. Its a disaster waiting to happen. In the article above, you read how easy it is for this to go wrong. I will let you use your own judgment about why a swat team would apply for and receive a no knock warrant and then argue that they announced. Lets just say that if there are cameras, and their should be, they would probably be consistent with their request to enter without knocking or announcing, overwhelm the occupants and have them zip tied before the concussion grenade smoke cleared. The swat guys love the overwhelming force in a fast thrust that's over in seconds. Its great when it works. Its an absolute failure that ends in the very real possibility of justifiable homicide when it doesn't go well. Nabbing either of these guys on the street would have been so much easier and effective. The warrants could have been served after they were nabbed and the interview later with the results of the search would probably result in a confession. Most agencies have brass that do not like this approach, but not for the reasons you might think. If they have body cameras, they don't like it. If they don't, they like it. The take away is that the raiding officers would rather rely on the credibility contest between them and the suspect than a video. It seems like videos would clear up much of the confusion that either side would rely upon in the absence of video.

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"One of the reasons why propaganda tries to get you to hate government is because it's the one existing institution in which people can participate to some extent and constrain tyrannical unaccountable power." Noam Chomsky.

 03/20/2017 09:36 AM
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Bamboo

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"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. These guys train, prepare and live for this."

Agreed.

Also, if a LE agency/department has a SWAT type team and equipment they need to use that team and equipment in order to justify its existance and budget.  If they don't use it, then it could be considered as not being needed and the budget cut.  It is a lousy situation which leads to using a sledge hammer more often than required.  

No-knock warrents should be the very, very rare exception.

 

Kind of on a tangent - Remember Waco?  The Waco Sheriff said he and a Federal Marshall could have walked up to the door, knocked and served the warrent to Koresh.  But, the ATF insisted they do a raid.  That certainly didn't end well for anybody.



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 03/20/2017 11:06 AM
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scombrid

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Originally posted by: miker Yup, and you will end up dead at the hands of the police with the way things are now.

Blue Lives Matter.



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...

 03/20/2017 11:17 AM
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miker

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Originally posted by: scombrid

Originally posted by: miker Yup, and you will end up dead at the hands of the police with the way things are now.




Blue Lives Matter.




All lives matter bro.
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