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Topic Title: Big Pharma
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Created On: 08/24/2016 07:02 AM
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 08/24/2016 07:02 AM
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miker

Posts: 7813
Joined Forum: 04/05/2010

I mostly lean libertarian because, to me, it is by far the best option compared to the republican and democratic parties. One thing I am not always 100% on with extreme Libertarianism is the far end of market deregulation. We have active instances where there is a monopoly, collusion, and/or gouging involved in certain industries.

A current example of this is with drug companies. They jack up prices for no other reason than to line their pockets at the expense of the people who rely on those medications. They have politicians bought and paid for as well as influential people in regulatory government institutions.

It has gone on long enough and the citizens of this country have allowed it. People are getting hurt and are dying because they can no longer afford medication that was jacked up in price to line a pharma executive's pockets. People who depends on medication to live a normal life are suffering as a result.

People no longer have control of their own health because of bribes paid to officials in government institutions like the FDA. Pressure on those institutions from elected officials that were lobbied and/or had their campaign financed by these companies. These very same bought and paid for congressmen and senators pushing legislation through that hurts the American people and assists the pharma companies.

It has to stop.

 08/24/2016 07:06 AM
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WG

Posts: 37257
Joined Forum: 03/10/2005

Health care is never really a free market.
Most nations have figured that out.

-------------------------
"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill
 08/24/2016 07:09 AM
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miker

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Originally posted by: WG Health care is never really a free market. Most nations have figured that out.

It 'could' be in an ideal situation. The situation, however, will never be idea in this country. We have an issue of corruption in our government at a very base level that will prevent it from ever becoming idea.

 

Bernie had the right idea on so many things, it is just too bad he had just as many wrong.

 08/24/2016 07:16 AM
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RustyTruck

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The free market has no (or very limited) business being involved in healthcare.

The price elasticity of demand is very low for most healthcare products and services. Therefore we must collectively control the market for the good of humanity.

Let the free market work where it should, cheap pizza, cars, personal electronics, so forth.

When capitalists get control of the medicine you or your child needs, raise the price 500% (PharmaDouche, EpiPen) then you should join the revolution.

-------------------------
Capitalism is based on the ridiculous notion that you can enjoy limitless growth in a closed, finite system.

In biology, such behavior of cells is called "cancer".
 08/24/2016 07:24 AM
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miker

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Originally posted by: RustyTruck  When capitalists get control of the medicine you or your child needs, raise the price 500% (PharmaDouche, EpiPen) then you should join the revolution.

Revolution is needed for Pharma.

 08/24/2016 07:27 AM
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Greensleeves

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That epipen crap drives me nuts.   FDA kicks one competitor out and drags heels on allowing the generic into the market!

Result: skyrocketing prices absorbed by insurance companies for those lucky enough to have it.  The rest put in danger!

Frigging lobbyist/revolving door craziness!

 

 08/24/2016 07:39 AM
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RustyTruck

Posts: 33293
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We need Bernie people for a job like cleaning up Big Pharm. H Dog isn't going to be much help.

The advertising part pisses me off the most. We have a nation of people doing self diagnosis and demanding the latest potentially dangerous drug because some paid actor on TV between ads for gold on Faux looks like he's having a great time banging women half his age. "Doc I've got XYZ, give me what the shirtless tan guy riding a horse on the beach is having!"

They're pushing pills like they were selling soft drinks.



-------------------------
Capitalism is based on the ridiculous notion that you can enjoy limitless growth in a closed, finite system.

In biology, such behavior of cells is called "cancer".
 08/24/2016 07:42 AM
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StirfryMcflurry

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It has gone on long enough and the citizens of this country have allowed it.

 

 

It has to stop.

 

Good luck with that

 08/24/2016 07:57 AM
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Cole

Posts: 68175
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My son's current Epi pen expires in a month.

I'm oh so excited to buy the new one. I'm exited that the new one will expire in a year too!

I should at least get a thank you letter from the CEO to thank me for my contribution to her $18,000,000 raise.

-------------------------
I was right.
 08/24/2016 08:03 AM
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miker

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How old is your son?

Are epi ampules and drawing your own an option?

 

Can get the eqiovlent of three regular epipen's for around $5 online ...then just add in the price of of syringes and needles.

 08/24/2016 08:07 AM
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RustyTruck

Posts: 33293
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What Mike said. Make your own epi "pen".

-------------------------
Capitalism is based on the ridiculous notion that you can enjoy limitless growth in a closed, finite system.

In biology, such behavior of cells is called "cancer".
 08/24/2016 08:09 AM
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Cole

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The pen is the only option right now. Extra time can be fatal. Would you take the chance?

And he won't outgrow the allergy.

I've paid $20 some-odd thousand in medical expenses in the last several years, what's $300 more....

And no, I don't have Obamacare.

-------------------------
I was right.
 08/24/2016 08:41 AM
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RegularJoe

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Originally posted by: RustyTruck
The free market has no (or very limited) business being involved in healthcare.


I could not disagree with you more. I'm not saying government doesn't have a place in health care, but innovation, competition, and alternatives are not going to exist without free-market involvement.

If it's all government and only government, then your choice is limited to what they provide. If there is no non-government market here, you can still spend your money overseas, but why not spend that money here and innovate here?

Part of the problem here is the mindset of people -- as if there is some inherent right to live forever, and every penny available shall be spent to do so.

But another huge part of the problem is the corruption and marketing, as miker and Rusty pointed out.

When you look at drug pricing, there is SOOOO much wrong. I'm not sure how long patents protect medical products, but if it's 17 years like most objects, that's not an eternity. Once a patent has expired, the prices should drop radically to just above manufacturing cost plus a small business overhead and profit.

I had to get some eardrops for my daughter a few years ago. It was a "new" formulation with only one manufacturer, and the price was about $1000 per ounce. ($250 for a 1/4-oz bottle). It was nothing but a combination of two meds with long-expired patents -- a steroid plus an antibiotic -- that cost a few bucks each separately.

We have the problem of US big pharma using US citizens (and government and insurance companies) to subsidize the discounts they provide to the rest of the world. It's hard to negotiate prices here, in part due to protections, and that has to stop.

So much of it all is so f**ked up, but so much of that has to do with regulation. Every new regulation comes with a cost of compliance, and spawns one industry to ensure compliance and another to figure out ways to get around it or maximize profit from it.

I don't trust our government to do many things right. A free market provides an alternative when they don't. What's unfortunate is that legislators have allowed the "free market" to draft much of our legislation to benefit itself.
 08/24/2016 08:51 AM
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WG

Posts: 37257
Joined Forum: 03/10/2005

I sort of agree, we don't want to eliminate the free market from health care, no country has done that either.
But we have to understand that market incentives just don't work completely in this arena

People don't shop around when they are sick.
We mostly can't know enough to make very well informed choices.
And we are not just going to let poor sick people die.

-------------------------
"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill
 08/24/2016 09:31 AM
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SlimyBritches

Posts: 6461
Joined Forum: 01/08/2016

Originally posted by: Cole

The pen is the only option right now. Extra time can be fatal. Would you take the chance?



And he won't outgrow the allergy.



I've paid $20 some-odd thousand in medical expenses in the last several years, what's $300 more....



And no, I don't have Obamacare.


I pay over 20000 a year with no ACA. The guy on the TV said that the most expensive part of the epi pen is the pen not the serum. He suggests using hypodermic needles that one fills manually.
 08/24/2016 09:35 AM
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Cole

Posts: 68175
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I hear a lot about regulation driving up cost, but never see links to real information.

The same was said about lawsuits, but that was shut down in Florida - you can't sue for anything unless a body part is missing - and cost has done nothing but rise.

Joe, can you provide a source for your regulation comment?

-------------------------
I was right.
 08/24/2016 10:06 AM
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RegularJoe

Posts: 3679
Joined Forum: 11/20/2011

I'll let you do the googling; there are so many places to begin. The mandate to use electronic health records or lose a percentage of Medicare reimbursements is one of many examples. If it were cost-effective and profit-driven, it would be adopted voluntarily. Instead, it has spawned a software industry that has a captive audience. Yes, there are benefits to EHRs, but the return on financial investment for them is questionable, and claims about medical efficacy (in terms of ROI) are specious and subjective at best.

Sort of like ISO-9000 and stuff... Your company knows fairly well what it needs to do to remain competent and competitive without ISO, but probably spends a decent chunk of change on audits, documents and policies and inspections to prepare for audits, etc... Again, not inherently bad, but questionable ROI.
 08/24/2016 10:20 AM
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RustyTruck

Posts: 33293
Joined Forum: 08/02/2004

Originally posted by: Cole

The pen is the only option right now. Extra time can be fatal. Would you take the chance?



And he won't outgrow the allergy.



I've paid $20 some-odd thousand in medical expenses in the last several years, what's $300 more....



And no, I don't have Obamacare.



Epinephrine is one of the most common emergency drugs, and it sounds like there's about $1 worth of epi in each autoinjector. I would make a new one daily and teach my kid to self inject.

That said, this sort of thing is an example of the "free market" when it's unregulated, and that's what I was referring to. The "free market" trends toward monopoly over time, and that's what big business likes. They pay lip service to the benefits of competition, but in business school they teach you how to "protect your market share". That means stopping anyone from offering an alternative, and those barriers often are created politically.

To me, the opposite of "free market" is a regulated market, not "no" market.

The only people in politics we can trust on something like this are Bernie and Liz Warren. You may not agree with them on everything, but they will damn sure get your kids an affordable Epipen if they need it.



-------------------------
Capitalism is based on the ridiculous notion that you can enjoy limitless growth in a closed, finite system.

In biology, such behavior of cells is called "cancer".
 08/24/2016 10:27 AM
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SlimyBritches

Posts: 6461
Joined Forum: 01/08/2016

Originally posted by: Cole

I hear a lot about regulation driving up cost, but never see links to real information.



The same was said about lawsuits, but that was shut down in Florida - you can't sue for anything unless a body part is missing - and cost has done nothing but rise.



Joe, can you provide a source for your regulation comment?


This is what drives up costs.
http://usuncut.com/class-war/pharma-ceo-epipen/
 08/24/2016 10:33 AM
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Cole

Posts: 68175
Joined Forum: 07/22/2003

The mandate to use electronic health records or lose a percentage of Medicare reimbursements is one of many examples. If it were cost-effective and profit-driven, it would be adopted voluntarily.

Possibly, but I find it hard to believe that a $4,000 visit to the ER can be justified by higher administrative costs?

-------------------------
I was right.
FORUMS : National Enquirer (FORMERLY NSR) : Big Pharma

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