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GOP:

Gaslight
Obstruct
Project

Nice geralization.

Problem is, in the specific case of firearms, #1 its a gauranteed right to own one #2 you will be left with good guys unable to defend against the bad guys.

Can you refute that logic?

Yes, easy. If everyone owns a musket, the bad guy takes a shot, and when he tries to reload, everyone else with a musket blasts the f**ker.

Most of us responsible gun owners know that guns aren't going away. That won't happen. But what we CAN do, is make it harder for the bad guys to get a gun (i.e. less guns on the streets, harder for bad guys to go to a gun show and buy them without any documentation, etc.)

Any common sense ideas from you?

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GOP:

Gaslight
Obstruct
Project

Here's an interpretation from a Conservative Supreme Court Justice:



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GOP:

Gaslight
Obstruct
Project

... If i owned a brick 'n mortar gun store you would see me on every local TV show, in every paper and blizzarding my Congressman and Senator with letters about the whole ridiculousness of Private Sales of guns.

Imagine a liquor store owner - having to go through all of myriads of regulations - is having to compete with some dude selling half gallons guns of Jack Daniels from the trunk of his car at a fraction of what I charge at my licensed liquor store.

Close the 'Gun show loophole'.

Yes, stop looking at the tool used, focus on the individuals, see what the common factors are, and address them.

My argument is not refuting the need to keep guns out of the hands of crazies, it's that there are already laws in place that should of prevented them to happen in the first place, but they didn't. So where is the logic that more laws will help? It's waisted effort if we want to be serious about this problem.

When I bought my first firearm, before I had my CWP, it was at a gun show. They ran a background check on me, and I had to wait three days to pick it up. What more can be done regarding sales at gun shows?

Funny, because there is plenty of literature/quotes from the actual people who wrote the law that clearly state everyone has the right to protect themselves, even from there own government. No?

 

I get a litle tired of selective apocrypha being hauled out and waved around instead of the Constitution.

We have the one sentence.  Our judiciary is allowed to interpret it.  End of story.  Right now, the interpretations are running in the direction of fewer firearm restrictions.

That may change.  Deal.

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Wiki wiki

Obx, the"gun show loophole" means private individual transfers. Did you notice the regular people bringing guns to the gun show? They can sell or trade with no checks.

I think the solution needs to have accommodation for friends and family, or licensing that would make private transfers legal between licensees.

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti

That makes sense, and quite frankly I wouldn't be bothered by such legislation. What does bother me is the reality of trying to enforce it. In other words, that's just a "feel good" solution, that will do nothing to curb the problem itself.

Whenever these tragedies happen, we get so polarized on the 2nd amendment itself (I am certainly guilty myself) and lose focus on the issue at hand. That's what pisses me off. Guns are not the problem, its the moral decay of our society that is. I just read in the paper this morning about an 8yr old bringing a knife to school, threatening to stab his teacher. 8 fcking years old!! He should be worried about getting cuties, not striking out in baseball, and how many more weeks of allowance until he can buy his first surfboard. Seriously, what is going on where an 8 year old child is thinking of killing his teacher? Well, we've all had that certain teacher, but to actually act out on it?! But I digress.

At the end of the day, no laws will prevent criminals from getting there hands on guns. Just like laws have done nothing to keep drugs off the streets. Just like prohibition did nothing to keep alcohol off the streets. Like I have been saying, if you/we really are concerned, its time to start being realistic about it. Unfortunately, the reality is politician only see these incidents as "crises you never let go to waste" and actually welcome such tragedies to push their agendas.

1st step is allowing schools to have armed personnel (retired vets, retired cops, or who ever can be proven to be both mentally stable and capable) if they choose too. Right now, they don't even have the choice. I don't understand why the left is so against this. We protect money with guns, we protect presidents with guns, we protect our homes with guns, but we are "crazy right wing nut jobs" for wanting to protect out children? WTF?!?!

Anyways, if you are of the opinion that laws will stop this, than you are entilted to it. I just happen to be in strong disagreeance. God bless America.

"Moral decay" has economic and cultural components, and I think we would have to examine the effects of late stage capitalism on work and alienation, but I think it does contribute greatly to individual gun crimes and gun related "thuggery". The death toll from these crimes is higher but less shocking than the mass killings.

Saying that "no laws will prevent criminals from getting guns" and using that to justify doing nothing is a false argument. Since the dawn of the concept of law we've known that, that's why there is a penal system.
We might as well repeal all laws with that logic.

The goal of law is NOT JUST intended to influence the behavior of the potential criminal, it's to influence the behavior of law abiding citizens who might unknowingly assist the criminal.

Let's say the "gun show loophole" is closed. If I'm selling a pistol on Facebook "Central FL gun trader" group, I wouldn't sell it inadvertently to the guy with $500 in his hand who's about to rob the bank.

Today I am bound only by my own good judgement as to the buyer's status. Of course I can ask for FL DL, CWL, whatever, but it's up to me. Even a conscientious gun owner might without knowledge provide a direct transfer of a firearm to someone under a restraining order, or someone just released from a Baker Act, or even a felon.

The law would not prevent all access to firearms by "bad guys", but it would make it harder, and might save SOME lives. That's really the rationale for most laws.

I'm all about 2A, and I'm don't support banning or confiscating anything. But I'd be OK with licensing private sellers the same way the current Type 03 FFL works for "Curio and Relic" gun collectors.
I have that and it's awesome if you like old historic firearms.

If you don't want the government all up in your business, fine, just buy your guns from a regular dealer and get your NICS check done.





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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti

Only in America, with so many guns, does "moral decay" result in so much of this sort of thing.
Of course the difference is the millions of guns we have.
The challenge is how to live with them

The 2nd amendment is worshiped too much for us to ever tweak it enough to have much effect.

It'll have to be cultural, not legal, as there is zero chance of any effective legislation.

Enough with all the guns already people.
They don't make you any safer, and they make everyone around you less safe.

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"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill

Edited: 10/08/2015 at 06:20 AM by WG

I agree with everything you said excpet the above excerpt.

1. I am not saying we do nothing, I am saying we be realistic in what we do

2. It is not a false argument, it is fact, as backed by the examples I listed (drugs, prohibition, prostitution). Where there is a will there is a way, and a black market to feed the need. I can go anywhere and buy a bag of weed, its that easy.

Did any of the shooters purchase their gun from gun shows/private sellers? Do we even know that statistic? Unless I am mistaken, they obtained them legally, as in, passred a backround check, or even got them from their parents. How can we prevent that? Make it illegal for a parent to give their child a firearm?

These are the types of discussions that need to happen. An honest look at the facts involved in each case. Were they on meds, if so, what meds? How did they obtain the firearm? What type of firearm? Why did they feel the need to kill? What was their backround like? Why is it that every single person involved is a young, white male?

If you look at these questions objectively, align the answers, you will start to see a pattern. The pattern being the meds, and that they were all young white males. Yet, not one politician is talking about that. You think its because big pharma is the top lobby? OF COURSE IT IS!!

"We" focus our attention on everything else but that glaring similarity in every case. We are sooo fcking retarded, that we even blammed a flag in one case. Let me rephrase that, we as a society have become so incapable of independant thought, that we were told it was because of a flag, and believed it.

Anyone who stepped back and said, "wait a minute, a kid shoots up a church and the response is to remove flags/desicrate memorials?" was labeled as a racist, right wing nut job.

Untill we stop being a nation of sheep, start questioning everything, especially the media and government, we will continue to decay as a society.

 

While I don't favor repealing the second amendment, I do favor rewording it.  We don't have militias anymore, so we should go to the trouble to make it say what we mean now.

I strongly disagree that we have "moral decay".  IMO we are shifting into a society that we, due to our evolutionary nature as tribal hunter-gatherers, are ill-suited for.

I feel we need to backfill some things to accomodate basic human nature.  Humans are plastic to a degree, but some attributes are set in stone and our culture is changing too quickly.

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Wiki wiki

How about a law to take away tax exemption for any  media/newspaper that acts as a political conduit exclusively for one political party.  So, they have income, but their expenses are not allowed because their efforts are acting in the place of one political party.   oh wait - that law exists but it's not enforced...  hmmm...  

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it's never too late to have a happy childhood...

Australia imposed strict gun laws after a mass killing more than 20 years ago and hasn't had a mass killing since.



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I was right.

Cole,  the politically correct people in europe imposed very strict gun control to reduce the numbers of people causing economic problems for the entire country!  The gun control was very effective because those people were not able to perform any more crimes, and thousand were then given free transportation to vacation sites in  Dachau, Buchenwald, and Sachsenhausen.  In this case, this trouble-causing segment of the population was able to be very well controlled in their vacation villas before going to treatments at the spa and getting tatoos.  

In more recent times, I heard from first-hand observers that gun control in BR was really helpful because it kept the fatalities down for those machine-gunning settlements to allow for economic expansion and opening up land for developers.

Yes, the gun control really helps control a population so people and corporations can get things done and pave a path of least resistance.  

Follydude- good point about the mfg and retail gun stores wanting loopholes closed.  3d printing must really upset them - they got to close that money hole as well. 

 

 

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it's never too late to have a happy childhood...

Enough with all the guns already people.
They don't make you any safer, and they make everyone around you less safe.            The Idea that anybody in this society may be armed and that any time you pull a gun and try to steal something the victim or a bystander may just pull a gun out and start shooting at them might keep criminals from trying to rob or shoot somebody...   The very prevelance of guns and gun owners in our society helps keep us safe because criminals have to be wary of other people with guns...             How many people are shot by criminals every day????   How many are shot by other citizens protecting themselves every day???        Guns make everybody safer because you are far more likely to be shot by a criminal than you are to be shot by an armed bystander...  the very idea of other people with guns being around may deter a criminal from using a weapon in the first place and if they do choose to use a weapon aa armed bystander may kill them before they kill other people...   win - win.    But with no public carry then the criminal has less of a restraint on starting criminal actions and less of a chance of being stopped once they start shooting... lose - lose

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Are progs so stupid as to believe that this provides an argument for gun control? The obvious (at least for normal people) answer to the above question is To deter non-criminal from engaging in the outlawed behavior and to punish those who do.

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I :heart; Q

Yeah, lets compare traffic laws with gun laws....    In High school you can take classes on driving, they teach you the law, hand you a car, and you practice driving. You take a class on the proper use of an automobile, an instructor goes with you and you learn how to drive. THEN, you have a choice, you can go and get a license and go and get a car and then drive OR you can choose to Not buy a car and not get a license.          If we are comparing Traffic laws which are taught in High School with Gun laws, Then WHY are we not teaching gun ownership, gun laws and gun use in High School???           I would believe that the use of a car kills far greater numbers of teenagers than gun use does, I would think that statistically gun ownership is safer for a teen then car ownership is...            We have hundreds of traffic laws and everyone has to obey them or get fined or go to jail, we also have hundreds of gun laws and you also have to obey them or get fined or go to jail...        Why if we are comparing auto laws and gun laws does the make and model of cars never crop up????         Fast cars, more powerful cars can do more damage than a slow car, why are we not restricting teen drivers to a Prius or Kia??

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