Wal Mart moves into a town, kills off all the local business and in turn, the people of the town have no choice to work for Wal Mart for lower wages. That's a simple fact.

You do realize Wal Mart makes these incredible profits in part because the government foots the bill to feed and keep their employees healthy?

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I was right.

None of you guys shop at Walmart?  The key to small business is relationship and quality service. If you want cheep you go cheep if you want service after the sale go to a local guy who you surf with.

^^^^^ Exactly the point I was getting to before I ducked out for a surf yesterday.

Now let's move to the claim Barney makes that a college education really isn't worth much more than a HS diploma.



In EVERY category the college educated person is MUCH better off. A college education produces people with better finances, and hence more money to spend driving the economy. Additionally, the higher income and hence higher income taxes paid over a career would more than make up for the "free money" received while in that persons late teens and early 20's. There would also be an enhancement in our social fabric. Do you really wish to live in a society full of ignorant people? Not me!

About $22.9 billion is spent per year in "Free Money" Pell Grants. In 2012 the Fed collected $2.3 trillion. Because I am college educated I can tell you that it amounts to 1.0% of what you paid in income taxes. That's pretty much what you contributed to someone getting a college education. Personally, I don't mind missing one dinner and a couple of drinks out a year with the wife to enhance our National identity. How about you?

Ya know, we democratically elect these Congress Critters and part of their job is supposed to be how to spend the money taken in to enhance and protect our society. Perhaps it's just me, but improving the education of the population, which inarguably improves the quality of life, fits the job description.


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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness -
John Kenneth Galbraith

People shop at Walmart because it fills a need- they want good with a bare minimum of service at the lowest possible price. Personally, I hate Walmart, I hate the ugly people that shop there, I hate the workers, and I hate the products there. That's why I don't shop at Walmart, but I don't blame the townsfolk who do decide to pay lower prices at Walmart rather than get taken to the cleaners by Mr. Kim around the way. Walmart tried to move in where I lived, and they were given a big middle finger by the consumers, however Costco does a brisk business, so much so that the proverbial Mr. Kim's of my city have lobbied the government to force Costco to close on Sunday, despite the fact the they pay their workers nearly double the industry standard. 

 

Again, the point of free choice is lost on you. Perhaps you were a lemming in another life. Try to read it more slowly this time.  No one is forced to shop at walmart. No one is forced to work at Walmart. It is up to the consumers to vote with their dollars- I know personal respsonsibility isn't the strongsuit of your ilk, but you have to admit that consumers at least play some role in the way Walmart does business. Walmart, in spite of all the terrible things it does, is a net good for society, if it weren't they coudln't say in business. They provide food and electronic necessities at a rate affordable to the poor and downtrodden you claim to represent. Would you rather force poor Billy Ray and Crystal to buy their Sailphones from some theiving franchise owner? I think not. That should stay in their pockets, because unlike successful, productive people, meth heads deserve to keep their disability money. 

 

All Federal Student Loans have done is push the standard from a High School Diploma to a Bachelor's degree. 40 years ago, that graph looked exactly the same, except that a high school diploma was where a bachelor's is now. Is that a net gain for society? If society is well served by barista's who can recite Gordon Wood by heart, then yes, it is a net gain. I'm under the impression that in only benefits institutional academia, and those students who seek to work in a field that actually requires a degree (typically STEM). I'd argue that the vast majority of today's graduates are not working in fields that require a degree at all, and are now strapped with with 5 and 6 figure debt.

 

The free availability of money for college, irrespective of the student's academic ability (or ability to pay it back) is what drives the cost of tuition. Institutions can charge whatever they want, because they know that the students can get it financed by the public.

You can jabberjaw about education all you want, but the idea that everyone needs a degree to be succesful is causing a huge deadwieght loss in the USA.  It's a race to the bottom.   

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Two Finger Ring 

You still never address that wal wart profits have a firm base in government subsidies through Medicaid and food stamps. How does that factor into the Libertarian game plan?



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I was right.

Cole's already made the point about Walmart that people of your "ilk" continually miss.

"The free availability of money for college, irrespective of the student's academic ability (or ability to pay it back) is what drives the cost of tuition. Institutions can charge whatever they want, because they know that the students can get it financed by the public." - Barney

The opposite is actually true.

"As family income fell, borrowing to pay for college took off, while public investment in higher education dropped. Sandy Baum of the Urban Institute says that drop has been the single biggest reason for the increase in college costs."

It's supposed to be some kind of meaningful point that a HS diploma 40-50 years ago is about equal to a college degree today? I guess in conservo world time stands still. It wasn't then and it isn't now. Did you miss the chart I posted above? Please, post the chart you referenced?

Also, what's with the assumption that all college grads are "baristas"? You do know they award Bachelor degrees for Engineering of many different disciplines, Registered nurses, physicians assistants, computer sciences etc...etc.. Skills the Nation NEEDS. For the record...I DO believe we have way too many lawyers.

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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness -
John Kenneth Galbraith

You are wrong. In the first decade after graduation from high school, the HS grad makes $280,000. The college grad makes $173,000 (6 yrs x $45k - $100,000 in college expenses). It would take the college grad another 6 years to catch the HS grad, if all else were equal. It isn't. CG will pay more in taxes. Moreover, most of the lazy bum pool is in the HS grad category. Strip them out so that you are left with only working people and you will be pretty close. That said, a college education is a good thing. But money wise, it isn't a no-brainer.

And, hell yes, I have a problem missing a dinner and a couple of drinks (though it would be more like 20 dinners) for this program.

 

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I :heart; Q

 

Yes, it is. It's a race to the bottom.  Let's consider a different example. Let's say in country X, men have an average height of 180 cm, and that taller men are treated better socially. Mr. Choi gets the bright idea to manufacture lifts for shoes. Soon, every man under 180cm is now average height. The men who were previously considered average are now below average, and in turn they must also wear lifts to regain there old position, and in turn, the tall men must also do the same, lest they be relegated to average status. Eventually, the social order is back where it was before, only now everyone has lifts in their shoes and the guy selling the lifts has substantially more money than he did before. No one is actually taller, they're only forced to play the game or get left behind. This is exactly what's happening with higher education. 

 

Succesful people used to get degrees, and not the other way around. Do- gooder liberals decided that having a bachelor's degree would then bring about the universal equality of outcome that they so desired, and enourage everyone to get one-- now it's the new minimum to be considered for basic employment. WOHOOO WE DID IT! Now you can start your career at McDonald's 100k in debt. 

In this day and age, universities are filled with people that don't belong and we not benefit from being there. They keep getting admitted because that sweet Federal cash keeps flowing. Overall, there is no net gain. 

Originally posted by: Cole You still never address that wal wart profits have a firm base in government subsidies through Medicaid and food stamps. How does that factor into the Libertarian game plan?

 

Walmart's profits have absolutely nothing to do with medicaid or food stamps. Are Walmart's employees on them? Yes. Is your point that Walmart would make less money if they paid for healthcare for their employees? I agree, and I assume that's why they don't. I'll even take it one step further and say if they gave their lowest level employees a 50% raise and full heath care coverage they'd be in Chapter 11 within a year. The point of Walmart is to provide consumers with what they want at a price they're willing to pay-- not to provide healthcare to people who made a career out of being a cashier. Frankly, the cashiers are lucky they haven't been replaced by robots yet (I'd say it's about 3-5 years off, at which point poor people will be able to afford more necessities because of even lower prices). 

 

Why don't you work at Walmart, Cole? I don't work there because I loathe company, the wages are unacceptable, and the work culture is terrible. However, if I went in and applied for the job, and accepted it, I wouldn't expect Walmart to pay me (and the 2 million+ people just like me) to pay me an arbitrary wage that I deem acceptable simply out of altruism. Even if walmart is the only game in town, there's still a million other things that a hypothetical person could do for money. 

 

How about jobs pay you to work there and you pay for your own food, healthcare, car and whatever other 'human right' that you choose? Employer sponsored healthcare started as a benefit to attract employees and should have stayed that way instead of becoming the standard. The idea that the guy who pays you should also pay for your healthcare, food, or porn addiction is perposterous. If firms are competing for your labor and they want to offer that in addition to money, then I'm all for it, but if you're unskilled and unmotivated, don't expect a Ferrari to be in the benefits package. 

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Two Finger Ring 

" Let's say in country X, men have an average height of 180 cm, and that taller men are treated better socially." Is there a falser premise you could (or whoever you pasted that from) could begin with? C'mon man...those little anecdotes are sort of fun too read...but they don't match the data. Despite what "Do gooder liberals" may think or not think, the data says that college educated people make MUCH more per year over the course of their careers than non-degreed people. It's a fact...deal with it.

"In this day and age, universities are filled with people that don't belong and we not benefit from being there. They keep getting admitted because that sweet Federal cash keeps flowing. Overall, there is no net gain. " I've already proved that incorrect by the DATA (see my previous hyperlinks) that says tuitions are HIGHER due to LESS government funding and families having to pay more because of it.

C'mon man...stick with the data...not anecdotes.

"How about jobs pay you to work there and you pay for your own food, healthcare, car and whatever other 'human right' that you choose? Employer sponsored healthcare started as a benefit to attract employees and should have stayed that way instead of becoming the standard."

Ah! I'm actually all for that! But does that not mandate that employers pay a wage that would cover those expenses? Not to mention some sort of retirement savings plan, profit sharing plans etc. Not many of them anymore. To coin a meteorological phrase: : "A retirement storm warning has been issued'.

In most clear thinking peoples minds the dilemma on this issue is the bald faced belief by Conservatics to think that ALL people in this country have the discipline to squirrel money away for decades in order to provide for their senior non-working years. Especially in the wage stagnant corporate environment of the last 20 or more years, that just IS NOT happening. Geez...a VERY large percentage of our citizenship is living hand to mouth. Or haven't you noticed that?

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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness -
John Kenneth Galbraith

It's not an anecdote. I'm using an example to illustrate the point that giving everyone a bachelor's degree simply moves the baseline while benefitting a 3rd party (institutional academia). 

 

"I've alredy proved...."

You didn't not prove that, and I can't see how you extrapolated that from the NPR piece you posted. Literally the sentence before the one you pulled out of the article says "Private loans, heavily subsidized by the federal government, gradually replaced federal grants as the main source of money for both poor and middle-class college students." 

Federally backed loans are the cause of runaway inflation. Students playing with what feels like free money are not price sensitive. Those who take out 100k loans for bullshit degrees were not college material to begin with, but this idea that college is for everyone that gets rammed down your throat since kindergarten causes the demand for education to rise, and the price along with it, because the prospective student can't be denied a loan. People who are actually college material are still getting full rides left and right, and even if the botched their high school grades they can still attend a reputable state school and graduate debt free like I did. 

 

"blah blah blah poor people etc haven 't you noticed" 

I did notice. That's why I gtfo of dodge. Americans are terrible planners. That's not my problem. I simply desire to save money for my own retirement, rather than paying into the sinking ship of Social Security and paying 50% in taxes that end up in some beaurcrats wallet under the guise of 'helping the less fortunate'. You every bit the useful idiot that Billy Bob Bible Thumper is, you are just more ignorant of economics and more arrogant because you assume your motivations are more pure, despite the end result being the same. 

To tie this all together-- having a college degree gives one some expectation of high wages, and with that expectation comes the ability to turn one's nose up at offers that are too low. If everyone ceased to accept these ridiculously low ball offers, company's would be forced to pay them the wage they want or go belly up. The idea that one would willingly accept work for agreed upon wage and then complain about it later is completely foreign to me.  

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Two Finger Ring 

Does wal mart make more profit because they don't provide for their employees, yes or no?

Is that lack of pay made up for by the Federal government, yes or no?

If it was an equal playing field, would local businesses be able to compete with wal mart, yes or no?

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I was right.

No to first question. Depends on the employee in answer to the second question. It is on an equal playing field. So the third question is invalid.

Progs are against anything that is successful and celebrate the unsuccessful. That is why the economy is a disaster under the PiC and always will be under the leadership of a prog.

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I :heart; Q

"You every bit the useful idiot that Billy Bob Bible Thumper is, you are just more ignorant of economics and more arrogant because you assume your motivations are more pure, despite the end result being the same. " - Barney

Sorry Barney, but my economic opinion is based on DATA, much of which I've linked to here. So far all you've produced is some "illustrations" which are in fact anecdotes, not data. I apologize for appearing arrogant but all I get from people with Conservo leaning tendencies are opinions based on hyperbole. The average HS grad making similar money over his career as a college grad? Show me the data, I'll believe you.

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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness -
John Kenneth Galbraith

Clearly yes. But that's not the question we need to be asking. A better question would be "Where do we draw the line". Clearly, the shareholders of Walmart would keep more money at the end of the year if they didn't buy every employee a car to get to and from work- which, depending on your persuasion, may or may not be a 'human right'. I believe that if you sign an agreement stating you'll work for X amount of money per hour, that's all you're entitled to until that agreement is breeched. 

 

The 'lack pay' is not made up by the Feds. They offer it, so anyone with any sense would be advised to take it. I had a professor that allowed cheat sheats on tests. I objected to the policy, because I'd studied, but was overuled by the masses who preferrred the alternative. I though I objected to the policy, I'd have been a fool not to use the cheat sheet. I think the same applies here. It's a bad situation, and that's why I don't shop at Walmart, however, I still defend their right to pay the legally allowable minimum. I think it's much preferable to every single cashier being replace by an RFID tag, no? 

The last question is the one I appreciate the most. I would say yes, absolutely. They must shift their marketing angle. I'd be happy to pay more for better service in an atmosphere where other good looking people shopped. Publix has beat and will continute to beat wal mart (granted their probably too corporate for your tastes). 

At the end of the day, retail will always be a business with slim margins where the person offering the lowest place will have a place. I have empathy for those dumb enough to make a career out of working at Walmart, however, I can't say I'd expect any different. It's their own fault for signing up for that an expecting Walmart to change. 

 

 

Appeal to authority. You cited an opinion piece and posted an infographic. If you hand every a degree, they're more 'educated' but everyone is still in the same position relative to one another as they were before. They same goes for a minimum wage increase, which you are no doubt in favor of; you can raise the baseline all you want, but those at the bottom of the heap are still at the bottom. You train everyone to be an engineer, but not everyone will find employment as one, and this is the problem we're currently having- everyone I know has a degree, yet very few have found gainful emplyment as a result of it. The more likely scenario was that they got a degree because their elders told them it was necessary, crapped out, and made something out of nothing out of their own gumption. They get counted in the stats for having a degree, even though it meant absolute dick in terms of them making a living. 

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Two Finger Ring 

Man, you need to cut back on the weed or booze or the Narco meds.

Does your ridiculous line of reason actually work in court?

God help us if it does.



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I was right.