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Topic Title: Salt-water intrusion vs. Opening the locks at the port.
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Created On: 04/07/2018 04:28 PM
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 04/09/2018 11:20 AM
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TeeBirdForever

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Joined: 08/21/2016

As I said, there are some scientists here.

And some others with opinions.

 04/09/2018 12:31 PM
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stokedpanda

Posts: 3251
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Originally posted by: somebodyelse

The IRL is a low flow ecosystem by natural design, if you start flushing it, it will be fundamentally changed




 




The 'natural' state of the lagoon is where the dunes are breached by hurricanes which open large areas of the lagoon directly to the Ocean, those breaches fill with sand, more breaches are made. etc...




The Natural state is where every couple years the entire lagoon gets opened to the ocean and flushed out. Instead of a continual island from the Cape to Vero, it should be a series of Islands. Opening another or several more inlets is more Natural than the closed cesspool we have now.




 



I would like to hear more from the scientists on this, I bet if it were not for the dune restoration we could have had a pass somewhere along Playlinda to Seb inlet.

I was way north at playalinda(gasp no not on the beach side) but from the river it looked VERRRY narrow. perhaps ma nature will try it for us



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 04/09/2018 02:04 PM
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Ppeterson

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Dr. Zarillo of FIT has studied this in great detail.  Options including widening Sebastian Inlet, keeping the locks open and installing a new conduit between the IRL and Ocean were all evaluated.  It has been awhile since I saw his presentation, but I believe that doing any of those only produced a very insignificant change in the long run.  There just wasn't enough water exchange. If you are really interested I am sure you can find the presentation.

 

 04/09/2018 02:07 PM
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Ppeterson

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 04/09/2018 03:13 PM
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TeeBirdForever

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Makes sense. Small orifices and not much chance of significant flow from inlet to inlet. Tides arrive at about the same time.

 04/09/2018 06:07 PM
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worksuxgetsponsered

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What I meant by fundamentally changing it, is once you open it up and increasing the flow things like dissolved oxygen and salinity are forever going to change and it wouldn't be the same type ecosystem anymore. There are much smarter people on here than I that can explain it in better detail. I'm just the knucklehead out there in waders with a YSI and a bunch of sample bottles. However this topic has given me a great idea for my GIS project.

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Edited: 04/09/2018 at 07:41 PM by worksuxgetsponsered
 04/09/2018 07:18 PM
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RegularJoe

Posts: 3224
Joined: 11/20/2011

Originally posted by: StirfryMcflurry

Originally posted by: Cole  I need some help on local, drought tolerant vegetation, does anyone have a suggestion?



succulents are the answer yer lookin for.



Too bad you're not in Cali.

they pay you to tear up your yard, and plant em.




My buddy got several $K from the San Diego County Water Dept to replace his grass with astroturf. It actually looks and feels quite nice. Aside from fertilizer runoff and sucking wells dry, it also eliminates some lawnmower exhaust and fuel consumption.

I just found some approximate prices on the internet, and rough estimates were a bit cheaper than pavers. Not out of the question for my next yard upgrade.
 04/09/2018 07:49 PM
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RocketSurf

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Originally posted by: TeeBirdForever

Makes sense. Small orifices and not much chance of significant flow from inlet to inlet. Tides arrive at about the same time.



Along this vein....I would think that tides arriving at the same time at that distance would not affect the inflow of water since it is not a pressured sealed system. I believe there is some wind driven slosh effect in the rivers. I know on a hard SW wind the 1000 islands of Cocoa Beach fill up with water. I have also shrimped up in the BR no-motor zone and Haulover Canal and have seen water movement under bridges. Since we have a predominate NE wind it would seem that there is a bit of a N->S flow. But as DaveFL76 says the end of the Banana river is so narrow water flow would be limited.
To Quote the FlaToday article "his $20,000 study for the St. Johns River Water Management District, he conducted several computer model runs, which included leaving the locks open......." That is pretty lame, only 20k?......we need to really figure this problem out and it will cost a lot more than that. Bottom line: the Powers that be need to wake up in Tallahassee and DC to help recover the IRL......

 04/09/2018 08:25 PM
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RegularJoe

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Tangential (in several ways) to the above... I think the storm surge models around Satellite Beach and IHB have the riverside houses flooding before those closer to the ocean.

One of the projected problems with a hurricane sitting off our coast is that a north wind (on the west side of the storm) would push water south, and as the Banana River narrows toward Dragon Point, you have more potential for water to overflow the banks.

I imagine the riverfront property owners and their insurance companies would fight any opening.

If we had a full-time inlet, there would be nothing to keep storm surge out of the IRL. With a lock that can be closed, you have a way to keep the water out when you need to. No new rivermouth break, but cheaper to use existing hardware than to build a new bridge.

 04/09/2018 08:50 PM
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dropsolo

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Originally posted by: spindrift

Open the damn lock.

Anyone been on the river in the sebastian inlet area or ponce area lately? Way healthier....

I want to revive the idea for another inlet by taco city.

Or pineda causeway. The pafb land is already govt owned.


Sign me up for the taco city inlet!!!! Been tooting that horn every chance I get. A small inlet with a small pump station. Google the Boca Raton inlet (except add the pump. If it's a smaller inlet, the pump shouldn't cost as much).



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 04/10/2018 04:46 AM
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dingpatch

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Ummmmm, , , , well, again, , , , , a "new" inlet, or otherwise leaving a lock open, sure does sound good for some people. BUT, the fact remains that it would destroy the ecology of the IRL as we know it. It would become something "new" and a lot of the grasses and species that you seem to love would soon go away. And it would still be constantly polluted by septics and run-off. It would certainly "appear" to be cleaner but, are you going to swim in it?

Lawn run-off is still going to be there and septic tanks are still going to pollute. How about getting involved in ending fertilizer in Brevard, and work to stop new septic tanks and eliminate those that are already here.
 04/10/2018 04:48 AM
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Ppeterson

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I worked on the Savannah River deepening project several years ago when they deepened it by just a few feet to allow the post-panamax ships to get into the wharfs.  It played a huge role in changing the salinity, DO and a host of other water quality markers several miles up the River.  That was a little different than our lagoon as the Savannah is truly a River.  But what it did do is allow the salt water to creep further inland and was a very big deal.  Fresh water ponds became saline, etc. etc.  Need to be careful with altering things as it is truly a butterfly effect.

 04/10/2018 05:42 AM
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tom

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Just a couple of things:

First, a potential misunderstanding of the barrier island geology locally.

Our geology and oceanography tends to create long thin barrier islands with few inlets; and,

any storm breaches are rapidly healed.  So, little water exchange with the ocean is the norm.  

Here's a good read on the subject if intersted:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Miles_Hayes2/publication/259646763_Barrier_Island_Morphology_as_a_Function_of_Tidal_and_Wave_Regime/links/55a50b9408ae00cf99c940ff/Barrier-Island-Morphology-as-a-Function-of-Tidal-and-Wave-Regime.pdf

 

Worksux:  I usually use the SJRWMD data retrieval tool:  http://webapub.sjrwmd.com/agws10/edqt/

I believe that historical data are pulled from STORET and recent data 

are (or will be) pulled from WIN.  There will be a known discontinuity between

how near detection limit values are handled by the two systems.  

I forget what that discontinuity is (haha, old guy), but it's driven by the U/I data qualifier flags. 

And don't diminish the "field guy with meters and bottles" stuff.

That's the group that "measures with micrometer", where the actual work get's done.

Everybody else is in the "mark with chalk, cut with axe" group;

where the real boo boos are made.  

 

 04/10/2018 06:22 AM
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TeeBirdForever

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Originally posted by: RocketSurf
Originally posted by: TeeBirdForever Makes sense. Small orifices and not much chance of significant flow from inlet to inlet. Tides arrive at about the same time.

 

Along this vein....I would think that tides arriving at the same time at that distance would not affect the inflow of water since it is not a pressured sealed system. I believe there is some wind driven slosh effect in the rivers. I know on a hard SW wind the 1000 islands of Cocoa Beach fill up with water. I have also shrimped up in the BR no-motor zone and Haulover Canal and have seen water movement under bridges. Since we have a predominate NE wind it would seem that there is a bit of a N->S flow. But as DaveFL76 says the end of the Banana river is so narrow water flow would be limited. To Quote the FlaToday article "his $20,000 study for the St. Johns River Water Management District, he conducted several computer model runs, which included leaving the locks open......." That is pretty lame, only 20k?......we need to really figure this problem out and it will cost a lot more than that. Bottom line: the Powers that be need to wake up in Tallahassee and DC to help recover the IRL......

Ya. I suppose the daily wind cycle could act as a sort of very slow pump inlet to inlet. Maybe.

 04/10/2018 07:24 AM
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stokedpanda

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I remember when the banana river first started to go, the no motor zone north of nasa causeway was the "holy grail" no motors, not much runoff etc etc.....I have not been in years but have heard even that area has and is losing grass.

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 04/10/2018 09:27 AM
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worksuxgetsponsered

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Thanks Tom. After speaking with my professor I'll probably use a more controlled system for this study, there are just too many variables in the IRL for this semester (I'm still getting my feet wet), but its definitely something I want to look into for my final project.

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People that think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
-Isaac Asimov
 04/10/2018 09:50 PM
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Cole

Posts: 34138
Joined: 07/22/2003

Is the IRL the design nature had in mind or have we screwed it up like the Kissimmee River too?

They have spent millions on the Kissimmee in the last few years, I wonder what we need to do to get the Federal and State government to notice us? Do we need more rich people bitching in the capital? I'm pretty sure Wonka water doesn't do much to help the resale of canal and river front houses.

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 04/11/2018 03:41 AM
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dingpatch

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 04/12/2018 01:13 PM
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3rdworldlover

Posts: 19220
Joined: 07/25/2003

Fix the three Ss first:
Septic Tanks
Sea Walls, and
St. Augustine lawns

I think mangrove restoration along seawalls would go a long way. Also, more encouragement to get people to switch to native landscapes in their yards. It's also possible for locals to get together and create a water control district to replace septic with a modern wastewater treatment and reuse system. Check the history of the Loxahatchee River Environmental Control District to see how it can be done.

Regarding inlets and flushing, give Ma a few more years and she'll show us how it's done. Probably somewhere near Taco Shitty
 04/13/2018 07:49 PM
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Cole

Posts: 34138
Joined: 07/22/2003

They have tried mangroves several times and they never seem to take. I wonder i it too dirty for them too?

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Dave doesn't like me.
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