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Topic Title: Finger spread when paddling = better propulsion?
Topic Summary: Thanks to the boundary-layer effect
Created On: 07/06/2012 10:05 AM
Status: Post and Reply

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07/06/2012 10:05 AM
RegularJoe Posts: 308 Joined: 11/20/2011	Article When watching the Summer Olympics, take a good look at the hands of the competitive swimmers. Chances are, their fingers will be slightly spread. Now new research finds that this hand position creates an "invisible web" of water that gives swimmers more speed. "It is a counterintuitive idea, the fact that you should paddle with a fork, not with an oar," With ideal finger spacing, the forces a swimmer can exert are 53 percent greater than those produced with no finger spacing, Bejan and his colleagues reported online June 9 in the Journal of Theoretical Biology. For aspiring swimmers at home, the perfect spacing is between 0.2 and 0.4 times the diameter of the finger itself. The part I don't quite get is this: In human swimmers, the invisible web of water allows them not to propel themselves faster, but to better lift themselves out of the water. That's where the speed comes from, Bejan said. Swimmers push against the water's surface not unlike South American basilisk lizards, which can scamper on top of water by slapping their big feet against the surface. This force propels the swimmers out of the water, where they then fall forward, generating a horizontal wave. "The higher you are above the water, the faster you fall forward and you see this effect in greater speed," Bejan said. In swimming, the obvious goal is to move forward, not up, so you'd think applying force in the forward direction is better than force in the upward direction. However, some upward force gets you out of the water's overall higher drag/resistance, so there has to be an optimal balance point somewhere. In surfing vs. swimming, your body is already out of the water and on top of a board, so the effect might be less. But it seems like some upward force would help avoid plowing when you paddle (especially for heavier guys on potato-chip boards that are less buoyant). Thoughts, experiences?
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07/06/2012 10:12 AM
seaspray Posts: 95 Joined: 05/10/2012	I myself am more of a spreader, in lieu of a cupper
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07/06/2012 10:14 AM
bob3000 Posts: 12614 Joined: 07/13/2004	Originally posted by: RegularJoe The part I don't quite get is this: Mike , you are NO regular Joe. 0/5 ------------------------- And Bob will ALWAYS be my numero uno. -Tiffanys
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07/06/2012 10:19 AM
long_flaco1 Posts: 898 Joined: 09/25/2003	Very Interesting Post! I've heard this advise before from an old school cat I used to surf with! Another thing he used to tell me every time was to paddle as deep as you can and almost aim for "under the board" if going straight as fast as possible.. Do you know if there is any truth to this method? I do believe that the spread fingers deal does help some, not sure how much, but heeeyyy, when your trying to get to the outside fast to catch that bomb that you can see coming at you all trick tips are welcome! On a side note, I think the best trick tip I've picked up is from here on our 2ndlight.com forum.. It used to be Freesurf's Signature line.. I constantly think about it while out in the line up: "POSITIONING and SELECTION" is the key!!! (thanks allot Freesurf) :0 ------------------------- SK8 AND DESTROY
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07/06/2012 10:31 AM
RiddleMe Posts: 1701 Joined: 07/21/2011	The under the board thing seems to work for KS. Me, I spread a little when I paddle just like I do when I swim. Feel like I get more bang for the buck that way.. ------------------------- "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mohandas K Gandhi
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07/06/2012 12:32 PM
BLat Posts: 558 Joined: 10/28/2010	Read about stroking underneath the belly of the board in a KS book...Pipedreams I think it was? I can imagine a happy-medium of finger breadth will allow one to stroke through the water faster by reducing the resistance of a complately flat surface attemping to move perpendicular through the water....but you're also moving less water/propelling yourself...so it's definitely somewhere in between.
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07/06/2012 12:49 PM
sw Posts: 408 Joined: 10/13/2005	slightly spread fingers with an S-shaped paddling stroke through the water works best for me except when i want to go really fast i lay on the front half of my board and paddle with both arms in unison instead of alternating!
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07/06/2012 02:15 PM
RegularJoe Posts: 308 Joined: 11/20/2011	Originally posted by: BLat I can imagine a happy-medium of finger breadth will allow one to stroke through the water faster by reducing the resistance of a complately flat surface attemping to move perpendicular through the water....but you're also moving less water/propelling yourself...so it's definitely somewhere in between. I interpreted it the other way; i.e., despite your fingers being apart, because of the water in the boundary layer being stuck between fingers, you're actually pushing more water out of the way with each stroke (the water pushed by each finger plus the water that's sort of caught in its draft). However, nothing is free -- you have to expend more energy to move that extra water. Surfing with webbed gloves is a great way to find out how fast your muscles get tired and how fast your body's energy gets drained. Clarification: What I meant by "less resistance" in the first post was about your body being higher out of the water (like boats on a plane) vs having most of the hull/body under water.
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07/06/2012 02:33 PM
SaveBlue Posts: 857 Joined: 10/25/2007	Does anyone really cup their hands when paddling? I would assume that it is only natural to paddle with a bit of finger breadth, after a trial of cupping and noticing the difference. I'm sure any avid waterman would have tried a closed hand paddle at some point and reached the same obvious conclusion that it is just not as efficient.
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07/06/2012 03:44 PM
Central Floridave Posts: 38493 Joined: 07/22/2003	"Finger spread when paddling " We can now officially close the 2ndlight forum down as we have finally reached every topic that you could ever talk about surfing... LOL... ------------------------- surf forecast
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07/06/2012 03:58 PM
RegularJoe Posts: 308 Joined: 11/20/2011	Originally posted by: Central Floridave "Finger spread when paddling " We can now officially close the 2ndlight forum down as we have finally reached every topic that you could ever talk about surfing... LOL... woohoo! what do I win???
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07/06/2012 03:59 PM
BootyCall Posts: 991 Joined: 03/14/2008	Originally posted by: Central Floridave "Finger spread when paddling " We can now officially close the 2ndlight forum down as we have finally reached every topic that you could ever talk about surfing... LOL... Ha .. I would have to say " spread'um".
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07/06/2012 06:15 PM
kneeblaster Posts: 1362 Joined: 08/11/2003	Some of swimming mechanics apply to paddling. When swimming or paddling, utilizing a slight ess in your stroke will enable you to find dead water-read a column of water that isn't already moving the opposite direction of the swimmer/surfer. In other words, finding the most friction with your arms as possible. This is very subtle and takes a bit of skill for swimmers to incorporate in their stroke while still rotating from side to side (Power swimming comes from the hips), but not too dififcult for paddling! as for the open hand paddling, I agree with it, but old habits are hard to change and I keep my fingers together. Edited: 07/06/2012 at 09:32 PM by kneeblaster
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07/06/2012 07:38 PM
RegularJoe Posts: 308 Joined: 11/20/2011	Originally posted by: kneeblaster utilizing a slight ess in your stroke will enable you to find dead water-read a column of water that isn't already moving the opposite direction of the swimmer/surfer. Great explanation of the concept, thanks!
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07/07/2012 04:38 AM
BPE Posts: 157 Joined: 08/18/2007	How bout a little swell to try this new finger spreading theory! Almost 3 decades of web style and I'm intrigued. I'd try it on the wife but a surf session sounds more fun. Hahahahahahaa
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